He was 22. I know he was young, but he still had good teammates and shot poorly. You've been arguing that he would shoot better if he had better teammates. His finals against Miami doesn't necessarily prove you wrong, but it casts doubt on your argument. [/QUOTE] I think Draymond Green's "playmaking ability" was overrated and resulted from having Curry/Klay. Defenses aren't going to key in on Green. For him to be effective, his team's offense needs to have consistent movement. Also, I can't imagine that Green and Harden's personalities would mesh. Sadly, it really is. A high volume 3pt shooter at 30% isn't a recipe for success.
I agree with all this (except the cherry-picked stat), but history has a way of overlooking nuance and focusing on actual achievements. Look at Isiah Thomas. He's remembered as a 2 time champion. He's not remembered as the guy who benefitted from Magic and Byron Scott missing almost the entire finals. In 20 years from now, do you think people will ding Kawhi's Toronto championship?
It's one anecdote from early in his career in very different circumstances. I never denied that it's possible Harden shoots just the same even with Klay Thompson and Kevin Durant in their prime, but it's highly unlikely, and the 2012 finals have minimal impact on that likelihood. I agree that his playmaking may have been overrated, but to have any playmaking from a guy that can defend all five positions and play as your center is incredibly valuable nonetheless, for any superstar perimeter player. Also, Harden has demonstrated the ability to play off the ball both in OKC and in his first few years in Houston. He slowly became the ISO monster he is today because it was what worked for this team and this lineup. He hasn't had the benefit of playing in a system and with teammates where he didn't have to generate all of our offense for quite some time. No, it isn't. But we're at another impasse if nothing I've said to this point about other ways of measuring production and impact has sunk in at all. Well that's a whole different discussion. I absolutely agree that if Harden and Curry's careers ended today, "history" would remember Curry as the better player. But the whole point is that general way of thinking in the sports world is flawed, and this is one example of that. You can't judge individuals by team accomplishments.
yes, i am. steph and harden weren't the players they are today, no one thought either the 2013 or 2014 rockets or warriors were going to do anything in the playoffs, and it was 7 years ago at this point. if we include those years, the PER drop is almost identical and steph takes a small lead in the TS% drop. no matter what filter one uses, steph will not look like some magical playoff performer compared to harden. and harden leads in PER, which encompasses things like efficiency and other stats. if the playoffs were an individual efficiency contest, reggie miller and charles barkley would have lots of rings.
you said stars didn't want to come here. dwight howard was the biggest free agent in his class and wanted to come here. even after that fell apart, cp3 still wanted to come here. and by all accounts westbrook wanted to come here. whether or not they all got along, it didn't seem to stop the interest. and what do you mean by "other stars". you can't sign dwight howard AND "other stars". you can't trade for cp3, max him out, AND sign "other stars". those were the stars. do you think the cap is infinite? one star has ever signed with golden state during this run, and he apparently got along as well with them as anyone apparently did with harden, despite the fact he was racking up titles and should have been the happiest person in the world.
That daunted defense sure did a number on Harden didn’t they? In game 4 Harden was 8-22 from the field, 1/7 from 3 point, 3 assists and 8 turnovers. In game 5 Harden was 7-22 from the field, 1/7 from 3 point, 4 assists and 3 turnovers. That’s the thing with with you Harden super fans. Always covering and pointing at different circumstances to protect him. This is a do or don’t league. Harden is the supposed MVP every year for the last 5 years and the GOAT scorer that ISO’s better than Jordan according to his Only Fans. If those are all true how about rising to the occasion instead of making excuses? Here’s CP3 demonstrating how to put a team on his back and carry them to a comeback victory to close a series out regardless of DRtg. Harden was well on his way to blowing that series if not for the Point God. CP3 bless.
do you think most people don't shoot worse in the playoffs when facing elite defenses? they pretty clearly do. people like hakeem and kawhi are the exceptions.
If I remember that game correctly, Harden was playing that first half as if he was drunk. Harden has these inexplicable weird games in the playoffs from time to time. I think he relies so much on spamming certain moves over and over that he can look discombobulated at times when the defense throws something at him he's not used to.
PER benefits guys who have ball, and Harden had the ball a lot more than Curry. Because he thought he and Harden would co-star in Houston. He thought wrong. Because we offered him the most money. Not exactly basketball reasons. Because he wanted to play with his buddy. Not exactly basketball reasons. If Durant had wanted to play in Houston instead of GSW, you don't think Morey could've made it happen? Durant won his titles by joining an established championship team. As a competitor, is it a point of pride to win a title by joining a stacked team? He was obviously sensitive about it; that's why Draymond Green was able to antagonize him so easily. Look at Lebron. His title in Cleveland carries far more weight than any of his Miami titles. It's not about shooting "worse". Most players shoot worse in the playoffs. What matters is the magnitude of the drop-off.
He’s lucky he got bailed out in games 4 and 5. What kind of MVP superstar has 2 pathetic games like that back to back? Again, CP3 bless.
Not just playoffs games. He does that from time to time in the regular seasons too, sometimes a portion of a game, sometimes a whole game, sometimes a stretch of games. It's not just some shooting slum, which every player has. It's like his soul was absent from his body, almost like a zombie. The playoffs games (especially when elimination is on the line) are more memorable. That's why his critics see him as a playoffs failure. But his overall playoffs numbers are actually not much worse than his regular season numbers, and his apologists always point to those numbers. It's still a mystery what was really happening with him in those moments/games. His fans give lots of excuses which are not really convincing to me.
His fans will ignore this post, because reality is not important to them. They really believe winning a championship with him as the main guy is possible, even if every evidence shows otherwise. He shrinks on the big stage. Maybe, he will change this narrative later on his career, like Dirk did, but I'm not a believer.
Are these games where the Rockets are facing elimination, or games in which they were eliminated? The numbers don't look good, but wouldn't you expect a player's numbers to be below average in playoff elimination games that they lose? What are his numbers in playoff elimination games they the Rockets win?
You do not need to go that far. Just hit up Game 5, Game 6 and Game 7s of any Playoff series. You would figure out he does excel in Game 1s, Game 2s and some Game 3s. It's a pattern, especially when Chris Paul arrived, once the team got figured out, his stats and shooting goes down, some games more, some games less, he relied on Chris Paul or role players more than usual. All compared to regular season.
that must be why steph almost broke the PER record in 2016, because the stat doesn't like him. steph's PER is plenty high when he plays well. he could have literally joined any team in the league. he wanted the easy title, didn't like it, realized he also didn't like the warriors, and left. you just said a few posts ago that the drop-off doesn't matter, it's the absolute value. you need to come to a conclusion.
they're basically low because 2015 game 5 and 2017 game 6 were so bad. they just lumped some more games in with those. the 4 games before that graphic were all wins and harden averaged 31/7/7 (60 TS% i believe). the 4 games since 2017 game 6 we've gone 1-3 but harden has averaged 28/7/5 (something like 57 TS%).
I think Durant left because he planned it long ago. After he won titles, he wanted to lead a team to titles. Being the clear No. 1. I pretty much believe he emulated Lebron's path without leading a mediocre team in Cleveland pre-Kyrie. Unlike LBJ he always loved stacked teams.
