If you want to define success in relative terms, sure. But that means you're saying that, by definition, half the teams have been "successful", since they are successful compared to the remaining teams. That's not how I look at it. Success, to me, is whether you've met or exceeded expectations. And those expectations are raised when you acquire exceptional, young talent. Go back 8 years. Say you were told that with Harden in 8 years time, the Rockets would pretty consistently make the playoffs and more often than not get past the first round, and one year even have the best record in the league, but they'll never make it to the Finals. What do you say. Putting aside Harden's individual brilliance and the excitement that created and focusing purely on team success, are you satisfied with such a forecast or not?
Vs not having Harden at all and not making the playoffs? Being the annual Loveable Losers who top the "teams ready to break out" lists each preseason? What would have been the alternate to Harden?
I have been very satisfied with what the Rockets have done with Harden on the team, I would say they overachieved especially considering he has had exactly 1 player on his team who made the Allstar game while on his team. What you conveniently leave out is that while on the Rockets he has had to go through 1 of the all time teams ever assembled a team that had 2 mvp and probably Hall of famers and another team that got 3 people in the Allstar game and was beaten by the all time great team 3 of those times. Also you leave out when Harden got here that was the start of the super teams. All of this by a guy who most thought would never be the lead guy on a team with that much success and a guy guy who most laughed at when he said he wants to be the best player ever. Yes I am satisfied. Anybody who was given the chance at forecast the day of the Harden trade would have been ecstatic and you know that. Check the archives.
When we first got him the expectations were lottery or at best being a middle of the road team, within two years we were in the western conference finals
8 years without a Finals appearance, I think many people would not have been satisfied with that. But you make an entirely reasonable point that given the dynamics of the league, and the formation of super teams, the deck is stacked against the vast majority of the teams and so expectations should therefore be lowered.
preach How many dudes were in the “Harden OKC trade” thread calling him a Joe Johnson or a complimentary player? Durvasa with the disingenuous post. nobody here was thinking top 5 player, MVP, generational scorer when we acquired Harden, so yes, if we were told the Harden we thought we were acquiring, aka Joe Johnson, would lead us to the playoffs every year, 50+ wins most years, and a 65 win season taking the most stacked team ever to 7 games, we wouldn’t have even believed it
The alternative would be rolling the dice and hoping for a better outcome. If simply making the playoffs doesn't do it for someone, and they want the thrill of Finals appearances and championships and the credibility to the franchise that comes a long with that, then they maybe prefer not to proceed with a certain outcome of being simply "good" and not "great".
Are we changing the criteria now? Satisfied and success are different too. Im ecstatic for what Harden has become, he’s made us a contender almost single handedly. That just raises the bar for success.
I wasn't arguing one way or the other if Harden's career as a Rocket has been a "success". Only trying to clarify why I think it is a subjective question. If you feel the Rockets have exceeded your expectations during his time here on the whole, then he has been successful in your eyes. That's a totally understandable POV to have.
Yes, but who had the ability to see the outcome 8 years ago? 8 years ago I remember many people saying that Morey was taking a huge risk, and Harden could never carry a team. Fast forward and now Harden is a franchise icon and has become a first ballot hall of famer. Who else could have been available? Yao had just retired the year before, Morey couldnt get in on the Dwight sweepstakes that year. Would Joe Johnson have moved the needle more? Maybe wait for one of the aging Kevin Garnett or Paul Pierce the following year? sure everyone wants rings. popping champagne. cruising Richmond Ave! I remember all those years before Harden showed up, when just making the playoffs was reason for a celebration and when a 41-41 season was seen as a moral victory. Then making the playoffs became the expectation and unfortunately the surrounding cast was never good enough to support James all the way. It takes more than one guy - go ask Lebron and even Mike.
I have been rooting for sports teams a long time and I know enough that only being satisfied with a championship means you will not get a lot of satisfaction. So when exactly should the Astros have been championship or bust? Certainly not in 2017. When can Texans fans start looking for satisfaction?
Nobody here thought Harden would be a consistent top 5 player or MVP. Nobody. maybe a few people hoped by some miracle a championship would be a result of the Harden trade at the time, but there is no way anyone had expectations that the Harden we all thought we were getting would even do what he managed to accomplish here we know what Harden has become, but at the time of the trade when he was being called Joe Johnson or a complimentary piece, if someone said Harden would’ve led us to all the things he did these past 8 years, u would’ve been called a homer or got laughed off the board and u know it
Looking at success in terms of individual player output, there is no question that the last 8 years have been one of the most successful 8 year stretches in league history. I was focusing on whether the Harden-led Rockets have been a success or not. A different question, and arguably the more important one for Rockets fans.
I am not talking about just individual success, I’ve clearly been also talking about team success as well read carefully How are we acquiring a supposed complimentary player or a Joe Johnson 8 years ago, but then also expected greater than many 50+ win seasons, a 65 win season, and 2 WCF appearances in 8 years? Especially coming off winning 1 playoff series in 15 years? U act like we acquired Lebron back in 2012, and not the dude everyone thought would never be a superstar in the 1st place. Many weren’t even in favor of the trade because their opinion of Harden was that low. Stop being disingenuous.
Who? If you want to call individual success, success. That’s fine, I have no argument there. To me that’s more individual greatness. Barkley, Malone, Marino types. Those types of players get the benefit of star treatment but that’s a double edged sword. The expectations are raised, meaning it’s pretty much championship or bust in terms of success. That’s just my opinion. Great, hall of fame players that I would take on my team in a heartbeat because it gives you a chance. I’m ok with that, but I wouldn’t call it a success.
