1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Biden wants student debt cancellation: Schumer

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by GreatOne1978, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. saitou

    saitou J Only Fan

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Messages:
    3,490
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    I was thinking of it in relative terms, software automation is going faster than hardware automation, over the next few years I think white collar jobs will be even harder hit. Ai will eventually help to write code too. Ai/robots coming for all our jobs :(
     
    Dubious likes this.
  2. biina

    biina Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,322
    Likes Received:
    1,370
    The hardware v software is an interesting angle and its difficult to say which will kill employment faster.

    Software automation seems to be the faster killer, while hardware seem more like the bubonic plague.. Software automation seems to take with one hand while creating with another i.e. finance departs have seen heavy automation but the job loss has been mitigated by expanded responsibilities. Hardware automation on the other hand seems only take away with little given in return. Industrial production, warehousing, farming etc have all been hit with severe job losses due to hardware automation, with little to no compensation in job creation.
     
    saitou likes this.
  3. saitou

    saitou J Only Fan

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Messages:
    3,490
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    I think software automation is going to accelerate even further as ai picks up, going beyond just calculating numbers faster and understanding context and conducting analysis. Example of ai radically reducing the number of radiologists we need in very near future:

    https://www.radiologybusiness.com/t...ligence/hello-ai-goodbye-radiology-we-know-it

    When ai gets good at coding and improving itself, it will accelerate even further.
     
  4. Tom Bombadillo

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    29,091
    Likes Received:
    23,991
    Yes plz.
     
  5. s3ts

    s3ts Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,111
    Likes Received:
    2,851
    Since you want a fight on this like an ******* here it is.

    1. I make substantially more than 30k a year, and I pay less than 30% on income tax. Whoever earns 30k or less definitely don't pay 30% in income tax, or get it paid back on tax returns. If you have state income tax, you're likely living in an area where you probably earn more than the federal minimum wage.
    2. If you live in a 2 bed, you have a roommate. Thats how I lived through college and paid 400 dollars per month on West Campus at UT. If you're stupid enough to live alone on low income, let alone in a 2 bed, you don't deserve a break.
    3. If 2 bed apartment is 30% of your salary, thats pretty ****ing good.
    4. 150 dollars for phone and bus bills? My Google fi is 20 bucks a month plus tax, and most calls are free.
    This is one of the biggest wastes of time, based on shitty finances, with factually incorrect garbage. There definitely are people who get dealt the wrong hand and lose everything, I have a bit more sympathy for them. Or if you were homeless from a young age because you had shitty parents. Otherwise, you shouldn't be flipping burgers for 40 years of your life. Its unhealthy, not smart, and doesn't add to society.
     
    Corrosion likes this.
  6. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    55,682
    Likes Received:
    43,473
    The median effective rate when incorporating local, state and federal taxes is 24% for the bottom 50% of wealth earners. His calculations are for "low wage earners" which is 11 dollars an hour which 44% of the nation's earns. Your personal anecdote about your effective tax burden is nothing more than that. An anecdote.

    So he's only roughly 6% pts off on the tax burden.

    Also what's more important here that your slow brain isn't picking up is the relative change. It's a trend that isn't going the right way for this nation for 40 years and isn't sustainable. The fact of the matter is in the past 40 years the median household debt has greatly outpaced median household wages. This trend has been happening for decades. How long can this trend lasts before social unrest hits a breaking point?
     
    #126 fchowd0311, Nov 9, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
    DVauthrin, Nook and Dubious like this.
  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    55,682
    Likes Received:
    43,473
    You are also telling me you never even came close to finishing the video as he discusses the affordability not SINGLE bedroom apartments for the vast majortity of the video.
     
    DVauthrin likes this.
  8. AleksandarN

    AleksandarN Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Messages:
    5,078
    Likes Received:
    6,754
    I have been thinking about this a while now. Why is middle household income going down? What can be done to help stop the bleeding? Those are important questions indeed. But not what is on my mind right now. I want to apologize in advance for going to a dark place and derailing this thread.

    I got to thinking how much do we as a society feel we should earn? Then I started looking around, not just in our western society bubble, but in the world as a whole. As the world becomes more intertwined what makes us and our standard of living more important than the rest of the world?

    “Western society“ consumes more resources than anyone else on this planet. Our standard of living is unsustainable. As the rest of the world tries to get caught up there will be less and less resources for everyone. So in reality we are the 1 percent. Now if you want to talk about the billionaires who are the one percent of the one percent it is even worse and they need to pay more. But even with that I still see the standard of living decreasing over time except of course the one percent of the one percent.

    We as a society consume way too much. Eat way too much. This planet can’t sustain our habits. The American dream is just that a dream that can’t be realistically had for everyone. Impossible you might say. There isn’t enough resources for one. But we have been sold on this dream by who? Ask yourself why?

    There will be a time that we as a nation, as a society and we as habitants of earth will have to ask ourselves at what cost will this bare on our planet? What will there be left to save?

    You can argue what effects of humans have had on Climate change. But the bigger picture is we are stripping this planet bare of resources. As more and more people come into this world the more pressure we put on it. We are killing off natural habitats at an alarming rate. Did you know that over half of the species of the earth will be extinct by the end of the century. We are killing this planet for the illusion of being that one percent of the one percent. I don’t want to be overly negative but we are ****ing up the only home we have.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...pecies-extinct-end-century-vatican-conference

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2004/01/consumerism-earth-suffers/
     
    #128 AleksandarN, Nov 9, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
    Corrosion likes this.
  9. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    36,809
    Likes Received:
    35,657
    College is a massive industrial complex that many people just don’t need. You know how many basket weaving BA’s there are working at Starbucks?

    I would rather there be a rise in legit, non-profit trade schools.

    Three public school paths starting at 6th grade:
    • pre-trade, out at 14
    • pre-paraprofessional, out at 16-17
    • pre-college, where you can earn college credits, out at 18-19
    Remove government backed loans for private, for-profit trade schools and colleges

    There shouldn’t be an easy path for making money off of people, sweat and tears. If you have a better product, people will pay more for it.

    I’m all for abolishing for-profit prisons as well. If we want to put people in jail, we should own the entire process. If it hurts more, there will be less non-violent criminals doing time.
     
    Corrosion and mdrowe00 like this.
  10. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    22,702
    Likes Received:
    12,404
    You have to put those qualifiers in first before you start forgiving things. The push shouldn't be giving free money out unless you are trying to stimulate the economy, but to make the system cost less and more available through efficiency.

    Here is a thought, a person can't get a government backed student loan unless the school is somewhat affordable. I'm don't want my tax dollars forgiving a loan to some dumbass kid going into 200k of debt getting an english degree at Trump university.

    Edit.:

    To add. How about limiting the interest of student loans at 1 percent above the prime rate for all federally backed student loans and making the program more accessible. Also put in qualifiers for when you can get a federally backed loan.
     
  11. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    55,682
    Likes Received:
    43,473
    Removing debt of consumers stimulates the economy. In fact it stimulates the economy more than corporate bailouts due to the velocity of money with the consumer middle class vs the capitalist majority shareholder class.

    Your example isn't even real. Trump university was a glorified seminar for fake real estate investment tips. There was no english ciriculum.

    I think for profit higher education shouldn't exist at all. Federal loans should have never been given to help for profit schools.
     
    #131 fchowd0311, Nov 9, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy QUEEN ANON

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    37,265
    Likes Received:
    13,730
    I agree so much with this.

    I think it's admirable to want to provide accessible education to all. But the industry of for-profit higher education doesn't deserve a pass. It's just not something everyone needs, and for many, it's a waste of time.
     
    Xerobull likes this.
  13. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    55,682
    Likes Received:
    43,473
    It's not a waste of time if it's affordable. A affordable sociology degree is well with it for society.

    Our founders didn't just want education for jobs. They wanted education for a more informed voting constituency and I'm sorry as someone with an engineering education, a bunch of Stem lords isn't going to cut it. I want as many people having some general sociology/political science education. I think it helps society. It doesn't help when someone has to go 80 grand in debt for that education though. That's where I definitely agree.
     
    Phillyrocket, DVauthrin and Nook like this.
  14. Dubious

    Dubious Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Messages:
    18,318
    Likes Received:
    5,090
    Nook likes this.
  15. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    36,809
    Likes Received:
    35,657
    There are BAs and then there are BAs. Not everyone wants to make money, but the truth is, you or your partner has to be able to support your family.

    I think the true onus should be on general curriculum being more socially aware.

    And cops should have to have a four year degree that's heavy on the social impact they have.
     
    Nook and fchowd0311 like this.
  16. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    36,809
    Likes Received:
    35,657
    Nook and mdrowe00 like this.
  17. s3ts

    s3ts Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,111
    Likes Received:
    2,851
    Seems to me you've NEVER done taxes. Are you in High School? Do you live in NY or CA?

    Rate For Unmarried Individuals, Taxable Income Over For Married Individuals Filing Joint Returns, Taxable Income Over
    12% $9,701 to $39,475 $19,401 to $78,950
    22% $39,476 to $84,200 $78,951 to $168,400
    24% $84,201 to $160,725 $168,401 to $321,450
    32% $$160,726 to $204,100 $321,451 to $408,200

    That's 12 % tax for 39K or below. If you fall into the next tax bracket for 22% that's 8% lower than 30%, but that's up to 80k... So I ask again, WTF are you talking about?

    Get ****ing married, that solves all of your problems. Or get a 1 bed apartment.

    Lol, you're the Mr. Big Brain?? I'm not the pompous ******* thinking federal minimum wage is the holistic solution to our future. It's always a local problem, and it requires local changes. Same thing with BLM. George Floyd's death was a tragedy and I hate the cops involved in it, but that's where that stops for me.
     
  18. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    55,682
    Likes Received:
    43,473
    You honestly haven't even watched the video at all. 5 minutes in he goes to an income that 44% of full time workers recieve and goes to "single bedroom".

    And you have a difficult time with understanding "effective tax rate combining federal, state and local taxes".
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americ...s-pay-a-lower-tax-rate-than-the-middle-class/

    I trust UC Berkeley economists more than some random chode on the internet.

    I'm not "Mr. Big Brain". I just trust the actual big brains over anecdotes. Sorry.

    44% of full time workers in America can't afford a single bedroom apartment based on the definition of "afford" being "30% of your income on housing". He even went higher than the thirty percent threshold, and still there was no "green states".
     
    DVauthrin likes this.
  19. Duncan McDonuts

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    10,372
    Likes Received:
    4,165
    While rockbox did use a hyperbolic example, there has to be a good ROI for public education. Should the public fund someone's $160k tuition for women's studies at a state university? I don't think so. I might be okay with it if it was at a community college for $10k.

    If we're gonna forgive student loans, maybe we should set a threshold ratio for debt to income that could be scaling. Education should be a good investment for the individual that will in turn benefit society. Society shouldn't be a GoFundMe for someone to spend $160k in tuition to earn $30k/year. But if someone has $80k in tuition for a STEM job that gets $80k/year, that person made a good choice.
     
    ElPigto likes this.
  20. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    22,702
    Likes Received:
    12,404
    Not many people smart enough to get a four year degree would want to be a cop. It's a sucky job. But I do think it should be a requirement for people in leadership positions in the police department.
     

Share This Page