France under attack by Islamists (including Erdogan)

And yet the position you are advancing is a brand of secularism that is incompatible with the goals of achieving peace and pluralism. You are demanding complete assimilation, and think you can get there by not simply criticizing criminal and anti-social behavior but by directly denigrating symbols they hold to be sacred. To be blunt -- this is incredibly foolish.

Let's not argue in extremes. Of course one should not totally self censor, nor should one just say whatever the hell pops in their head because they are legally allowed to do so. Maybe I have a different perspective on this as an American, where cultural diversity is something we are all steeped in. We have to be aware of the sensitives of particular cultures and moderate our speech with that in mind in order to retain peaceful coexistence. It doesn't mean you can't express disagreement. But there's a constructive way to do so, and you have to be willing to take that into account. ATW acknowledged this earlier -- that you need Muslim allies and you can't vent as you might on an internet message board when trying to communicate with those communities. It simply won't work.

 

Probably because I didn't intend for it to be a sentence but an explanation of sentences that you just decided to selectively take a part instead of taking as a whole.....

The bolded simply isn't true. What is modern Christianity? I was raised Catholic and it wasn't until the past decade that they started recognizing homosexuality as something that isn't flat out an abomination.

Billions? Has it reached 2 billion?

My point is that Christianity and its history isn't all that dissimilar. When the West was having its own Dark Ages, the East and Muslims were having their own renaissance. Now the cycle has turned and Islam is in its dark age.

I prefer looking at the big picture. I wholeheartedly agree Islam is the current religion causing most of the issues. I just know historically, Islam isn't all beheadings and killing nonbelievers.

Because twisting religious texts is as old as time...... You somehow think Christians are different or probably just not very familiar with the Old Testament.

It's really dishonest to make such a statement without understanding the Old Testament or maybe you are thinking of the New Testament.

No.... just pointing out religion is the issue.

The few Muslims I know don't act anything like you think they do, but hey..... maybe they are just sleeper agents.......

 

I never advocated for complete assimilation in any of my posts, neither do I want it.
I'm a huge friend of differing cultures and their positive individual aspects, but that ends when peaceful coexistence is threatened (see views on women or pride, laws, demanding local celebrations like Christmas to be abandoned etc).

So calling out that parts of the Quran or behaviour are incompatible with a modern society means I'm "denigrating symbols" they hold sacred? Open discourse without cursing and just stating facts should honestly not be an issue to adults.

I'm sharing the same view and expressed the need for revolution from within in the past, no idea why you would think I advocate openly mocking or harassing Muslims.

I never said that these caricatures are a great way to tackle this issue, but I would never bow down to demands from a non-native vocal minority and think it's the wrong approach.

 

I don't see officials of the Catholic Church as representative of the religion, sorry. The majority of Christians will tell you that. It's been a purely capitalist and removed from the Bible organization since at least the middle ages.

How again are the things I mentioned a result of twisting Bible texts? They have nothing to do with religion and are just purely selective oppression of political opponents.

No idea what that has to do with my statement of mainstream Christianity making progressive changes in the past hundreds of years, but seems you like to mention the Old Testament at any given time and without context.

I dozens of times in this thread and in the past mentioned that there are absolutely great and progressive Muslims I've met and consider friends, so stop acting like I'm saying every Muslim is bad.

 

The majority of Christians are Catholics globally.. You still didn't answer, what is modern Christianity?

Why are both Christians and Muslims patriarchal and anti homosexual? Where did that come from?

How are Christians able to get around "thou shall not kill" so easily throughout time? In the 21st century..... don't kill the unborn but pass judgement and execute a criminal..... ? Turns out religious folks pick and choose what they believe....

What is mainstream/modern Christianity? You keep throwing this term out like the thousands of Christian denominations are one bloc.....

You are claiming there's something inherently violent about Islam that isn't in Christianity..... no?

 

That's good. Those are all good things to oppose. Sorry for misrepresenting your views.

Yes. There are plenty of Muslims in the world who basically share your values. Engage in dialogue with them. How do they reconcile those apparent contradictions? Learn from them, and use their perspectives and experiences to try to sway illiberal Muslims to think more like them. Thrusting Sam Harris arguments in their face, as persuasive as you or I may find them to be, is not going to work.

That's all good. You asked earlier about how best to express that their holy prophet is a pedophile and mass murderer. What possible reason do you have to do that when engaging with them, other than to mock/harass them? I sincerely don't get that. If you think it's a matter of being historically honest, well ... ok, but applying modern standards of morality to figures who lived in the Dark Ages does not strike me as a historically honest framing.

 

In Austin Texas you should worry more about Christian extremists than Islamic extremists. If you were in Germany or France or England, you would feel differently. Islam in large part in the USA is vastly different than Islam in Western Europe which takes the teachings of Muhammad quite literally.

 

Being Catholic has absolutely nothing to do with following the words of Catholic officials. The official church stopped being about religion at the latest in the middle ages when people were absolved from their sins by paying money to the Church.

Modern Catholicism and Evangelism, as practiced. And I'm again not talking about the policies of Catholic officials who are far removed from the actual worshippers.

No? I directly said all religions contain dangerous material, but in the case of Islam it's way more often taken to heart and acted out.

Death penalty is sanctioned by individual states and USA is one of the absolute last countries to still have it, the same goes for abortion rules.
You seem to act like there's a clear line in the bible for these things, when abortion and the question of whether a fetus for example counts as a full human life was never a topic there obviously.

 

The New Testament takes precedence over the Old Testament. Indeed the New Testament and Jesus conflicted with the Old Testament.

 

I've tried and there's only an extremely small number that actually acknowledges the inherent issues of the Quran. But even they in 99% of cases can't persuade their Muslims fellows in any way that there's something wrong with the Quran and that terrorism may actually be in line with the teachings.
Once you mention that, people will very quickly block off the entire debate and label you.

I don't know who that is, my opinions on this topic are my own.

I feel like it's important to show that the prophet and founder was basing most of his principles on violence/hate and was also a despicable human being that shouldn't be glorified. Muslims should look for better role models who actually advocate for tolerance and peace.
Pointing this out seems like an important step in realizing that there needs to be a reform and different approach.

 

Which was my point, I even mentioned that Europe is different. But the claim seems to be made the Islam is inherently violent but that doesn't explain the difference between the US and Europe.

 

I know..... it's almost like it was written by two different gods. In spite of how its supposed to work..... we got this ~2000 year history of Christianity that often uses the Old Testament to commit atrocities, violence, and keeping people in their place.

 

Seems like we are arguing in circles....

In modern history yes.

Just pointing out how while "Modern Christianity" isn't killing people and enslaving people like it has historically done, these fundamentalists are using different avenues to impose a theocracy.

Again.... my point is there is nothing inherently more evil about Islam and Islam is currently in a dark age cycle.

 

The Quran is certainly far more violent and tribal than the New Testament. Compare Jesus to Muhammad and they are complete opposites.

Someone can use any religious text for the purposes of violence though.

Having said that, in many parts of the world Islam is not simply a religion, it is a culture and defines the government and virtually every law and process in the day to life of Muslims. That is not the case for Christians (in large part) and hasn't been for many hundreds of years.

The Muslims in Europe are from places like Afghanistan. They are raised in an extremely violent world and culture and believe in very strict adoption of Islam.... which calls for dismissal of all laws other than those of Islam, for the treatment of women a particular way that isn't compatible with the West... for the death of homosexuals and many other values that the West rejects.

In many cases these traditional beliefs are being furthered through teachings in the some Mosques, older family members and friends. Also, I do not doubt that the large number of recent immigrants play a part in extremism as well. There is pressure put on Muslims by other Muslims.

I have friends that are nominally Muslim or have converted to atheism and I have no issues with them and they are wonderful people. However they even admit that the books are quite violent and incompatible with the modern world unless you choose to only follow some parts of the faith.

I have also see terrible discrimination towards Muslims in my travels in Europe. The situation is far worse all the way around than it ever has been in the USA and it requires spending a lot of time in Europe to really appreciate it.......... Many Muslims are treated poorly in Europe. Many Muslims in Europe want Sharia Law and believe they should be able to commit violence without any government involvement.

 

Right, except the New Testament is supposed to trump the Old Testament.

If you position is that horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, I will not argue with you....... many have even distorted the faith to reach their own ends.

If your position is that there is no difference between the New Testament and the Quran, then no I cannot agree....... Muhammad and Jesus could not be more different......... I say that as an atheist.

 

If your goal is to make Muslims in your community more moderate, I would suggest you don't start by attacking what you think is fundamental to their religion. I'm not sure how you hope to sway them by starting there. Does the phrase "low hanging fruit" mean anything to you? Start with the easy things. Moderate Muslims would be able to formulate an Islamic argument against harassing/raping women. You may not agree that it is "truly" Islamic, but what you think doesn't matter. It's what radical Muslims think that matters, and you have a much better chance of being successful in getting them to think like moderate Muslims than getting them to think like you. Make sense?

OK.

I think what's important is to convince Muslims that their prophet was an advocate for tolerance and peace, as millions of moderate and peaceful Muslims genuinely believe, not to try to turn them against their prophet which is an impossible task. You may think this would be a delusion on their part, to think of their prophet in that way. Fine, all religions require suspending disbelief in way or another and twisting historical evidence to fit a particular narrative. Let this be one of their delusions.

 

How do you stop radicalism? Whether its Islamic or right-winger or whomever - extremism is increasing without a doubt and it's a big problem as extremism begets violence throughout human history.

Seems to me that at least in the case of Islamic extremism, any provocation or perceived insult to their religion is taken to such an extreme that results in violence. While freedom of expression is critically important, you have to wonder how sane it is to inflame radicals. Still you can't control what someone publishes regardless. There needs to be more of an active partnership with Muslim communities and especially religious leaders to understand how to teach tolerance and acceptance as a counterweight to the propaganda they get exposed on on the internet. And there needs to be a redress of the plight of the Muslim world and its backwardness. Europe played a role in the current state of North Africa and the Middle East through colonialism. I still think there's a lot of anger about that.

European leaders need to be strong with an intolerance of violence and come down hard on extremists, but at the same time acknowledge the mistakes they have made in the Arabic world and make the effort to elevate the lives of people they formally colonized instead of supporting gov'ts that they see as having failed the people.

I think anti-Islamic rhetoric only inflames the situation more though.

 

you stop radicalism by showing that religion is an ancient philosophy that does not advance humanity forward.

if an advanced civilization visited the earth, it would cause chaos because i'm sure they won't be religious.

no cartoon hating advanced beings

 

How things work out are two totally separate things. I just don't agree with your view that we just toss out the Old Testament because it takes precedence and I know that's not how Catholics view it. While the New Testament is what makes a Christian and not a Jew.... the Old Testament is still very relevant to Christianity.