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Who is better right now James Harden or Lebron James?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Air Langhi, Oct 2, 2020.

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Who is better?

  1. James Harden

    39 vote(s)
    24.7%
  2. Lebron James

    119 vote(s)
    75.3%
  1. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    CP3 has also played on better teams than Harden and has played with the better player.

    And Harden has had more playoff success, so what does grit and vocal leadership actually mean?
     
  2. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Lebron is better and has shown this playoffs that he can still take it to another level.

    Not a slight on Harden because Lebron is arguably the greatest player of all time.
     
  3. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Regular season 2017-2018: Harden had a 35% usage rate, Cp3 24% usage rate. Playoffs Harden 36, Cp3: 26%. You are wrong. Playoffs time of possession Harden: 9 minutes. Chris Paul: 7 minutes. You are FLAT OUT WRONG. You do not know what heliocentric means. Harden is what our offense is run through the majority of the time. He does by far the most heavy lifting on the team and it was by design. You ignore numbers and you ignore reality.

    Oh my god, do you think simple highlights of Chris Paul reflect how Harden distorts a defense as opposed to Paul? Thats now how it works. Its how he affects the Warriors team defense and the other player's on the team get open, not just Harden. If the gap in BPM is that large, its not noise, and its not just some one off either Harden has a higher BPM for the entire series. And you using Chris Paul highlights to try and reflect Harden's impact on the game is flat out laughable. This is such a piss poor way to evaluate something.

    Okay, so many things wrong with this. First off, Cp3 didnt have a better overall series. Harden had a better one, I just gave you the stats for all the games and you still deny it. And you dont take into account ALL games to back your flimsy argument. You dont take into account who the Warriors are mainly trying to stop and who's the main option on offense. And now when the facts dont reflect your narrative, you flat out make stuff up about Harden that isnt true. The numbers dont reflect and Im sure if you looked at more than highlights, so would the film. I mean do you even see what you write "Harden is only good against worse teams, Cp3 plays worse against worse teams but outperforms Harden against the good ones." Totally flawed logic and totally dismissive of Harden's impact.

    Do you think there is only one help defender out there, you dont help off of the team's best offensive player. THAT is basic basketball, not simple minded basketball like everyone helps to stop the drive, that's terrible.


    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/te...s-Paul-didn-t-give-them-a-chance-14030597.php
    No mental gymnastics here dude, only facts. Just come to reality.

    Its possible, there are a lot of teams out there. And if his performance with the Clippers was near what it was with his first year of the Rockets, I have no reason to doubt at least some teams would have given the offer. Morey also didnt HAVE to max him either.

    So you have no proof.

    When I give you actual proof your response is "use some critical thinking" and when you dont have actual proof Im supposed to just accept it hmmmmmmmmm. Money matters dude, of course it does but its not the only factor. Harden recruited Chris Paul he came to Houston to play with James. Im tired of your dismissive nonsense.

    He wasnt in FA long enough for deals to materialize. He didnt even take a meeting with the Spurs or anyone else. And even if I give proof like at other points in this argument, you would flat out ignore it and make up your own narrative. I've given you the proof that Paul wanted to come to Houston to play with Harden and you write it off as lip service.

    But its still a shadow, he's still a second banana. Like....what? There is no argument here for you here.

    My point is Kyrie was sick of him, Kyrie could have had more chances to play with Lebron to win more but chose not to so. He instead went to go play with Durant and even forced out a trade, that has never happend with Harden. You are giving examples of dude's wanting to play with Lebron but Im telling you Irving wanted out BEFORE the first championship. Also Cp3 chose us, Dwight chose us and so did Westbrook(two of those unfortunately) and a lot of that was because of Harden. But go on.......

    LMAO, what? Is it not easy to just pick up a phone. That's how he recruited Paul George, over the phone. Hahaha, oh no poor Kawhi, he's so injured he can't pick up a phone. And just so you know, many player's turned down Kawhi before he called Paul George. Jimmy Butler, Kyrie, KD and he even had the Clippers call the Rockets to get hmmmm......you guessed it, Harden.


    We literally had a 65 win team and would have dethroned the GOAT team. Why is that not cause for a max deal? And again you have no evidence that a "wink wink" deal was even made, thats pure speculation you have without evidence. And Im willing to bet there are teams out there now that may trade for Chris Paul's contract this off season. If his first priority was money, he could have found another sign and trade deal with another team. It didnt have to be the Rockets, Paul wasnt even in free agency long enough for an offer to even materialize like that. News flash dude winning AND money matters. No superstar in today's game are taking pay cuts to play with each other. And again your argument is when dude's want to play with Kawhi/Lebron/whoever location and money doenst matter. When its Harden....only the money matters. Harden was recruiting Paul a year prior and I have given you proof of that. You think Paul comes here if we don't have James Harden?....Answer that question.

    He wasnt in FA long enough for anything to materialize, how many times do I have to say this? He chose the Rockets immediately, Harden had been recruiting him for a long time. LOL, and if it was choice between Doc Rivers and CP3....Im pretty sure they would have chose Chris. But interesting, now he hates Doc Rivers and THATs the reason he left LA. He had one year left on his deal dude, you think he uproots his family out of LA just because of problems with Doc.....the answer is no. And its funny because Doc is on record saying that Cp left because he wanted to play with James Harden. But yea its totally not about Harden.

    They only had different ideas when Chris started sucking(had his down year). That's when the complaints came in. He became a shell of himself that year and was given the ball less(and Melo stuff). And for all this talk about "Who cares he signed with Lebron" Chris never asked out of Houston like Kyrie did with Lebron. Harden never even asked him to be traded either, he wanted Westbrook with Paul and before that Butler with Paul, Morey is on record saying that. LOL if you think money is the only reason he came to Houston......than I dont know what to tell you. You can possibly believe he still signs here in the first place if we dont have James Harden.
     
    #223 HP3, Oct 8, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  4. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Sorry, but no. As I've already stated many times, Harden and CP3 played "your turn, my turn". Harden may have had more turns than CP3, but not to the extent that CP3's contribution to the offense could be so easily dismissed.

    Yes, I think that by watching multiple, complete offensive series throughout games, we should be able to see how Harden "distorted" the Warriors defense. Look at this way. Offensively Harden could stand at half-court and do nothing, but as long as the Rockets keep outscoring the opponent, his BPM would look good. Yet, according to the eye test, we know that he didn't distort the defense at all.

    Watching and analyzing game footage is one of the most important evaluation tools.

    I said that CP3 was more impactful in our wins, and that's true. He was more impactful than Harden in games 4 and 5. You already acknowledged game 5. Go look at the last 10 minutes of game 4. We overcame a 7 point deficit to win by 3. In that span, Harden stepped down, and CP3 stepped up.

    It's not flawed at all. Harden is great at beating up on fringe playoff teams. CP3 doesn't play worse, but he's more willing to defer since Harden excels at this.

    Why are you struggling so much with basic basketball? It's almost cringeworthy. Here's the play:

    [​IMG]

    Even if CP3 were prime Michael Jordan, Curry would still have to abandon him to provide help defense since Harden had already gotten by Looney.

    Sorry, but its still mental gymnastics. You're forgetting that the 2017 was Kawhi's injury offseason where he and the Spurs management started having problems. Given that, do you really think the Spurs would've offered a max contract to CP3?

    The fact that Morey didn't have to offer him a supermax contract but did so anyway lends credibility to the wink-wink agreement.

    Which other teams would've offered a 33 year old CP3 a max contract? You're essentially saying that in the 2018 offseason, there were teams that had enough cap space and were a star point guard away from being a legitimate contender.

    So which teams? Not Toronto (Lowry). Not Boston (Irving + a youth movement). Not Philly (Simmons + youth movement). Not Cleveland (impending Lebron departure). And not the Warriors (Curry), Blazers (Lillard), or OKC (Westbrook). Utah had just traded a first round pick to acquire Rubio. So who?

    Because your "proof" is easily dismissed as lip service. The majority of players won't admit that they prioritize money over winning, but that's the reality. Just like when Morey assured everyone that CP3 wouldn't be traded. Lip service.

    We have the benefit of hindsight. Use it.

    Sounds like you forgot that Durant tore his achilles, and he'll be 31 next year. At this point, Irving could very well be the better player.

    Didn't Dwight opt out of his final year with us?

    And so far, every star we've signed (Dwight/CP3) has had a fallout with Harden prior to leaving the team.

    He signed the extension in July 2014. They won a title in the 2015-2016 season. So you're saying that Irving wanted to leave during the 2014-2015 season? Where's your proof for this?

    Use some critical thinking. Kawhi played 9 games in the 2017-2018 season. He knew he was injured. If he actively recruited a star in the 2017 offseason, that would've ensured that no star would ever play with him in the future.

    I'm not sure that's entirely true. Durant/Butler turned down Kawhi. The Clippers were told they needed to acquire another star before acquiring Leonard. The Clippers inquired about Harden and were turned down. And I'm not sure why you brought this up.

    For a 25 year old CP3? Absolutely. But for a 33 year old CP3? Not so much. As you said earlier, we didn't need to offer him the supermax. We could've had him for cheaper.

    Sure. Name a team.

    He definitely wouldn't have come. Without Harden, we wouldn't have been contenders so we wouldn't have tried to acquire CP3 in the first place.

    You're also misusing the word "pay cut". Clint Capela wanted a contract earning $25m/year. No teams were willing to offer him that, and we signed him for $18m/year (including incentives). He didn't take a pay cut. Similarly, had we signed CP3 to a lesser amount, it wouldn't have been a pay cut because no one else was going to offer a supermax to a 33 year old CP3.
     
  5. SkareKrow

    SkareKrow Member

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    Rockets 3 "best players" this season were guards (Harden, Westbrook, EGo) who were supposedly able to handle the ball and create some offense. The fact that James still had that high a T.O.P. is crazy. Harden had a high T.O.P. even when CP3 was here.
     
  6. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    It's not easily dismissed. That is not what Im saying, you do not have the correct definition for the last time. Heliocentric offense is running your offense largely through your best player and that's what happend. Significantly so, the usage rate, time of possession are all things I have given to back up my argument. You have given nothing except your own wrong definition of what a heliocentric offense is.
    Dude you are watching HIGHLIGHTS, that's not a full depiction of how a game went nor is it a full depiction about how a player distorts an offense. Harden is rarely just standing around though? He has the ball the majority of the time. You arent seeing how he distorts the defense because an indirect assist or score wont show up on highlight videos. If Cp3 was as impactful as you say he was that game, why woulndt his BPM be larger? Why woulndt his Game score be higher as well? They are significantly different and you can't ignore that. TS% is not the end all be all and neither are 4th quarter points. Your eye test off of highlights dont mean anything though. He didnt distort the defense at all, and lol you made this statement according to Chris Paul highlights.....man are you for real? Is this how you evaluate things?

    Nope, not true. And I've given you evidence. You gave nothing but highlights which don't present the full scope of the game, so flimsy evidence. So your eye test as well your film evidence is not sufficient. Not true for game 4 either. Mmmk...so only the last 10 minutes of a game matter, got it. Again weak narrow scoped evidence that doesnt provide the whole picture.

    So now the teams we beat are fringe playoff teams. Butler with the wolves were a third seed before he got injured. They were a good team. Utah Jazz were also not a fringe playoff team. They had Donovan Mitchell and a top defense. And Harden performed better than Cp3 so by definition Cp3 performed worse than he did. LOL, now its Cp3 who's "deferring" to the guy who uses the ball more and has the ball more in minutes per game. What a waste of time.

    LOL, he didnt abandon him he stunted off of Cp3 to get in Harden's way. That's not fully committing to being the help...oh my god. Draymond was the help coming off the weakside. Durant also would have better luck helping off of Gerald. But no, it was Cp3 because Curry felt he could stunt off of him and recover if Harden passed the ball to Cp3. That doenst happen in the reverse situation. This is just another of example of you being a person who thinks they know more than they do.

    No, that's not where they started having problems. They started having real problems during the season when they didnt handle Kawhi's recovery properly. They cleared cap space dude. Cp3 DID NOT EVEN GIVE THEM A MEETING. I think they cleared cap space and there is evidence that they did want a meeting with Cp3(which I gave to you). They also werent able to sign any other notable FA to come play with Kawhi. So again, no mental gymnastics, only facts. You have nothing but flimsy assumptions and narrative biases on your side. I have given you reports and you have given me next to nothing.

    You don't have any proof for that? You simply do not. Morey didnt HAVE to do anything. He just came off a 65 win team that almost dethroned the GOAT Warriors. There is no evidence of a wink wink deal. You just make things up and like to see it as fact.

    Well if being a contender didnt matter, than why does it have to be limited to just contenders. And why are you assuming any of these deals happen if Cp3 is still on the Clippers instead of the Rockets, the NBA would different. There is no guarantee that any of those deals get done. Honeslty, he could have just done a sign and trade and traded Irving to the Clippers and Cp3 to Cleveland...or LA could have just signed him out right if Cp3 had decided to go with Lebron to LA. But again, its speculation. There are definitely some teams out there would offer him the max, they dont have to be contenders either. LOL, the Knicks actually want his contract from OKC right now.

    Its not though, especially when A.Cp3 chose us very early in FA B. Reports were that Harden recruited him a year prior to that. You don't get to pick and choose what is lip service you goof. Money AND being on a winning team matters and Cp3 came here to play with Harden. You really just don't live in reality. Also Morey made that statement about Cp3 BEFORE Russ became available.

    What? This doenst even make sense. Im going about things in a logical manner, you are giving flimsy arguments and making up your own narratives. You are very very bad at this.

    Irving and Durant were planning on playing together well before that injury happend to Durant. Durant had been planning all year to leave the Warriors.
    https://bleacherreport.com/articles...and-kyrie-irvings-plot-to-team-up-in-brooklyn

    That's after we tried to trade him multiple times that year.

    And yet Cp3 never asked for a trade. He was still willing to play with James...so again, no this did not happen.

    Kyrie wanted to leave Cleveland even before that first championships. It was during the 2015-2016 season. And he still had misgivings even after they won the title. Also...apparently, he signed an extension before even finding out about Lebron coming back to the Cavs...so your point doesnt even work to begin with.

    https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports...-irving-to-ask-for-trade-in-2017/95-572911394
    https://247sports.com/nba/los-angel...s-angry-after-winning-championship-131270683/
     
  7. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Why? It was a quad injury, not some season ending injury, no one at that point thought Kawhi would miss as many games as he did. Use your critical thinking. Whats wrong with recruiting dudes in the offseason even if you wont start out playing in the beginning, do you think he planned to miss extended time? Im telling you, he was not planning to leave San Antonio in the offseason. And they couldnt come get anyone to play with him during that FA either.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles...yrie-irving-before-paul-george-clippers-trade

    I bring it up because you have said no one wants to play with James Harden. So what gives? If Harden is such a ball dominant diva who no one wants to play with, why bother asking? Hmmmm....

    Why not? As I said we just came off one of the best seasons in franchise history. Well why would Cp3 not wanna max deal after the year we had. Respect matters, Cp3 is also president of the player's association. It's not like he could take a pay cut anyways. He HAD to get the best offer possible. So again, no evidence of a wink wink deal.

    Cleveland or maybe a bad team like the Knicks. If Irving decides he wants to leave.....than he could have been traded to Cavs in a Sign and Trade for Irving. But again, none of the offers that we would have seen could materialize since Cp3 chose so very early. The Spurs also did in fact clear out cap space and couldnt get a meeting with Paul.





    You arent answering the question. If we were still adamant about getting Cp3 but have no Harden do we have Cp3? The answer is no. Because Cp3 wants to win very very badly. He wants money AND winning. And with no Harden here, there was no chance to play with another top level player. He chose Harden and the Rockets, you need to stop ignoring that. You are making it solely about money when that isnt the case. I have given you the evidence and you just sit there and ignore it.

    Those arent the same thing. If you are a player of Cp3's caliber and you have just performed like you have the year prior, AND you are the president of the Player's Association, you have to get max value for yourself. He's not in the same position as Capela. And if we didnt, he would have gone somewhere else, you are just magically making up the fact that no other team would have given him the max when that simply isnt true. There are teams out there that want to trade for him RIGHT NOW. He has trade value. That should be enough evidence for you. And like I said before there are no superstar team ups that have dude's taking less money these days, it doesnt happen.

    At this point...Im tired of this dude, you make up facts and don't listen to stats/reports/facts when they are presented to you. This was honestly just a waste of time and Im sorry I tried to engage with you in the first place.
     
  8. supaflyz

    supaflyz Member

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    They still in here arguing whos the better player lol. Hypothetically, lets just ask random people that are not Harden fan nor Lebron fan on who they picking if they are a GM. Both Harden and Lebron is available on the same draft. I think we all know who the majority of people will be picking.
     
    PeterKingX likes this.
  9. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    How many games did he play the following season?

    That doesn't prove that Kawhi wanted to play with him. All it proves is that the Clippers inquired about Harden because Kawhi wanted a star teammate. Kawhi reached out to specific players. Harden wasn't one of them.

    Because teams don't want to pay $40m to a 37 year old Chris Paul.

    Of course CP3 wanted a max deal. But which teams aside from the Rockets were offering one? That in itself gives credibility to a wink-wink deal.

    And again, you're misusing the word "pay cut".

    Zero chance a rebuilding team offers a 4 year max contract to a 33 year old CP3. They'd offer shorter contracts like the one Ariza got from Phoenix.

    I answered the question fully. If you didn't like the answer, then the onus is on you to ask a better question.

    If we had a different star instead of Harden and offered CP3 max money, CP3 would be in Houston. But if we had no star and offered max money, who knows if he would've come or not. He's not stupid. He knows that this was his last chance for a $100+m contract.

    He was in the exact same position as Capela. Every player tries to maximize his earnings, but those earnings are entirely contingent on what teams are willing to pay.

    How do you not understand the huge difference between signing a player to a max $160m contract and trading for him when he's halfway through said contract?

    Teams hoping to win a title sign big contracts. Teams looking to rebuild trade for them. Rebuilding teams don't care about CP3. They care about his expiring contract.

    It's a waste of time for me. For you, I hope it was a positive learning experience.
     
  10. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Just to confirm....If Harden runs 51% of the plays, and CP3 runs 49% of the plays, would you still consider that a "heliocentric offense"?

    It doesn't matter if they're highlights. They're full offensive possessions, not snippets. It can absolutely give you an idea of how players distort defenses.

    They do when the highlights show the full offensive possession....like the one I provided.

    Let me explain the logic since you seem to be having trouble. All defenses key in on the ball-handler. But what about when Harden doesn't have the ball? You claimed that he distorted defenses. The only way to prove/disprove that is by looking at footage of him without the ball. If only there were another ball-dominant guard on the Rockets.......HMMMMMMMM

    When CP3 has the ball, Harden doesn't, and if we have footage of the complete offensive possession (which we do), we can see exactly how much Harden distorts defenses off-ball.

    Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

    BPM depends on the caliber of teammates as well as caliber of opponent. It's much more useful to watch the actual footage.

    Also, in a tight game, 4th quarter performance is extremely important. Not sure why I need to explain this to you.

    Narrow scoped evidence? The last 10 minutes of a tight playoff game don't matter? You're basically saying that "clutchness" doesn't matter.

    Given that you're such a big fan of Harden, I understand why you believe that.

    Footage of complete offensive possessions trumps whatever evidence you've offered.

    Yes, they were a fringe playoff teams. They had no chance at contending. The Utah Jazz had a ROOKIE Donovan Mitchell. Again....ROOKIE Donovan Mitchell.

    I suggest you watch Jimmy Butler. If he feels like his teammates can shoulder more of the burden, then he will defer to them. If he feels like they cant, then he'll take over. It's the same thing with Chris Paul.

    If you watch the full play, Curry did fully commit. The screenshot I showed you was to emphasize that Harden had fully beaten Looney which is why Curry was forced to provide help defense. GSW plays team defense. Curry full committed and retreated once he was beaten. Draymond Green was coming off the weakside, but he was late. Durant had no angle to provide help defense.

    Good grief you're an idiot. Look at the picture again. Take note of the GSW player standing literally RIGHT NEXT to CP3. I think they might actually be touching shoulders....

    Nope, the problems began in the offseason.

    Kawhi was injured all season. No one could play with him.

    Here's a life lesson for you. Don't take everything at face value. Use some critical thinking.

    Because non-contenders won't sign 33 year old veterans to $100+m contracts. That's common sense. Please.....a little critical thinking.

    Whether or not Westbrook was available doesn't matter. Either the Rockets were willing to trade CP3 or they weren't. They said they weren't, and they did. Lip service.

    And all the talk about Harden/CP3 wanting to play together definitely looks like lip service since CP3 was traded a year after he signed the supermax contract with us.

    Ok, so next year, a prime Kyrie was planning on playing with a prime Durant. That's still significantly different than a young Kyrie playing with a prime Lebron.

    So? He still wanted to leave Harden.

    CP3 is a competitor. Of course he wanted to play for a contender instead of a rebuilding team.

    Please quote where it says he wanted to leave during the 2015-2016 season. I didn't see it.
     
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  11. HardenVolumeOne

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    https://bleacherreport.com/articles...rden-as-rockets-too-old-right-now-for-rebuild

    "I wouldn't move Harden," an Eastern Conference GM told Michael Scotto of HoopsHype. "He's still so good, and they're too old right now to just start a rebuild unless you're getting a Jayson Tatum or Luka Doncic to rebuild around."

    James Harden right now has more trade value than LeBron any gm will tell you that

    but you ask haters on realgm, insidehoops.. basically gms in nba 2k they will tell you that nobody wants harden lol
     
  12. supaflyz

    supaflyz Member

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    Which GM? U put a link to one GM then mentioned that any GM lol? I was inferring to if they are both young and there is a draft. Both of them are available draft, then we all know who the majority is picking. I'm not a hater by no means. I'm a Rockets fan first, not any specific player so I don't give a **** or bias towards any player. I'm just seeing it from a basketball fan perspective. Fair enough that you mention at the current state as Lebron is 4 years older than Harden and is on the tail end of his career. Lebron with those blocks against the Rockets in that series just seem to fluster Westbrook and the rest of the Rockets. He could actually play and show up in the playoffs. Don't be a Harden dick rider and let that obscure your thoughts. Your name is already Harden volume one with one of his nuts in your mouth. Stop showing so much homerism then he have two nuts in your mouth and you coming up with hardenvolume2.
     
  13. Pandaemonaeon

    Pandaemonaeon Member

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    The one who was picked third/fifth in a year where it was slim pickings, or the one who was picked third (and should've come in second if Memphis' owner wasn't a moron) in a year than had Blake, Curry, DeRozan, Rubio, and others?
     
  14. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    But it's not 49-51% you goof the gap is higher than that between them(significantly so), I've given you the evidence and you dont have a leg to stand on. You simply dont understand the definition nor do you listen to the stats when I give them to you.
    But they don't show you the totality of possessions and dont give you a clear picture on how a person really changes the defense. Its lazy work that doesnt give you the real picture. But at this point....it's expected of someone like you. Half assed analysis with made up narratives.

    LMAO, you showed Cp3 highlights, that does nothing to show how Harden affected the defense for the rest of his teammates except Cp3 and even then that's not the real picture because it doesnt show you all the possessions in the game. You are terrible at this.


    Im not gonna sit here and tell you again why that is flawed thinking. Holy crap.

    When I have ever given you the impression its all about what Harden does "off" ball. He creates more opportunities for teammates on ball than Cp3 does. And raw assists don't measure that. You using strictly what he does off ball for Cp3 is dumb as hell. That's not what I mean when I say distorts the defense.

    Those arent all possessions though...holy crap.

    No because you arent giving a clear......wow

    I watched the game dude. Harden was more impactful. He kept us in the game big in the first half. His game score was significantly higher than Cp3s as well. I dont use one metric to make judgements, I use both film and stats. You have a Cp3 4th quarter which fits into your stupid narrative.

    Why dont we just play all basektball games in one quarter then, cause the other three don't matter. They dont count towards the point total at all? God man.....

    It does matter, but the whole game matters as well. This is a stupid argument.

    First of all you havent given that. Second of all I've given you much more evidence and you still don't get it.

    LMAO, the Utah Jazz were number one in defensive efficiency that year, 5th in net rating. Rookie Donovan Mitchel was giving it to Paul George in the first round. That's not a fringe anything. Anyways, Im sure you wont listen to this either cause we...thats how you are.

    Cp3 was not "deferring" he was the second option on our team. I can't believe you are actually suggesting Harden was "padding" his stats against playoff teams. And that the only games that mattered were the ones we had against the Warriors(and even then you are still wrong about who was more impactful). Holy crap........this is just flat out bad

    He didnt fully commit, are you serious? You think that weak stunt to get a hand in was fully committing? That's not a full help defense, that is stunting. LOL i cant believe that you think THAT is fully committing. Draymond Green fully committed but was late..THAT is actually committing, not what Curry did, just trying to get a hand in. Hmm...yea Durant probably didnt have the angle....but I think he could have at least come a little earlier to deter Harden a little bit.

    Watch the actual clip in real time goofy, that dude is following Ariza to his spot.

    There was no evidence by ANYONE that he had any problems in San Antonio at that point nor was his injury recognized as season ending. Hindsight isnt evidence.



    I do, but I also dont make crazy assertions like a wink wink deal without sources, i also don't ignore sources when they are provided to me like some child. You dont have proof, you have nothing but speculation. Weak.

    Why not? I can see a team like the Knicks or Kings or someone brining in Cp3 on a max deal. There are organizations out there that would give him that deal after that year. LOL and I like how you ignored the rest of my post there, convenient. Please don't project your lack of critical thinking on to me.

    Yea...yea it does. Because he said before these events unfolded. They were willing because he just had one of the worst years of his career, not because he asked out and it was AFTER Westbrook became available.

    Dude, things change. Situations are fluid, Cp3 was horrible the year after his contract and was piss poor in the playoffs. Of course things changed, that doesnt mean they didnt want to play together like the reports said A YEAR PRIOR. That doesnt mean Cp3 didnt come here to play with Harden. If Cp3 didnt suck that year, none of this happens. You just believe whatever you want.


    A young Kyrie never wanted to play with Lebron in the first place. Kyrie then played with him and STILL wanted to leave even after winnning a championship with him. Way worse than a situation Harden has had with any teammate. And he's still choosing to play second banana to Durant. So you have no argument here.

    After he started sucking and we tried to trade him multiple times....yea sure. I bet you really believe this is a good point lol.

    And? What's your point? Do you think Cp3 and Dwight are the only places they have had problems with teammates? You are putting it on Harden like Cp and Dwight are saints who are easy to play with when that couldnt be further from the truth. Also Kyrie had a falling out with Lebron and wanted to leave him....even after winning a chip(and before). He never even wanted Lebron on the team. And the only reason we had a "falling out" with Cp3 and Dwight was because they were a shell of themselves prior to being traded.

    He was unhappy there playing the whole time, he was thinking about leaving RIGHT AFTER he won the championship. He was not happy being second fiddle to Lebron. The arguement that Lebron(and not Harden) gets player's to play with him is moot when Irving never wanted to play with him in the first place. So your whole argument there is moot.
     
    #234 HP3, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  15. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    I'm trying to understand your definitions. It seems like you're being intentionally vague to avoid backing yourself into a corner.

    It shows the entire possession. Not sure what else you can realistically ask for.

    Yes. Complete offensive possessions. So we can see what Harden does off-ball and how the defense reacts to him.

    Please, use some critical thinking.

    Then be clearer. Because distorting the defense with the ball is nothing special.

    If you want all the possessions, watch the entire game. If you want individual possessions, watch the full-possession highlights.

    Which baskets are more important. The ones that come in a tight game with 2 minutes left in the 2nd quarter or the ones that come in a tight game with 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter?

    It's disheartening that you don't understand why crunch time production is significantly more important than first quarte rproduction.

    Watch the CP3 highlights. They're full offensive possessions.

    Again, rookie Donovan Mitchell. The Jazz weren't contenders and it's intellectually dishonest of you to claim that they were.

    CP3 absolutely defers when he thinks his team can beat his opponent. Look at Jimmy Butler. He does the same thing.

    You don't think this is a full commit?

    [​IMG]

    Doesn't matter. He's still able to provide help defense to CP3.

    It actually is. Like when Chadwick Boseman was criticized for not appearing enthusiastic with his fans. Hindsight tells us he was fighting cancer the whole time.

    Please......critical thinking.

    It's the most logical answer. I'm sorry that you're so bothered by it. I guess that's expected from someone with questionable critical thinking.

    It'd never happen. They have no reason to. If CP3 plays well, then they become a fringe playoff team which kills their draft pick. If CP3 plays poorly, then they get a good draft pick but are locked into CP3's enormous contract. There's zero upside....only downside.

    That's why you often see older veterans take 1 or 2 year deals with the 2nd year being a team option. It allows the team to maintain cap flexibility. If they get a good draft pick, then they can also sign a younger star and try to establish a direction for the next 8 years.
     
    #235 wekko368, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  16. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    So if the Clippers inquired about Harden before Kawhi contacted PG, what does that tell you, use your critical thinking. :rolleyes: It means that Kawhi would rather play with Harden instead of Paul George.

    The Knicks want do that right now though. And Im sure other contenders would trade for Cp3 right now as well. There were other contenders and other non contenders out there who could have signed Cp3. Lakers definitely could have with Cp3 going to LA to play with his buddy Lebron.

    He wasnt on the market long enough for a deal to materialize, again you have no proof of this nonsense and you keep citing it like you do. Stop making up stuff. Your "critical" thinking here has no evidence to back its assertions. Morey didnt HAVE to do anything.

    And you are not understanding my point, money and winning matters to these guys. No matter who it is, no player is gonna take less money to play with someone else for more than a year. It rarely happens. Cp3 HAD to take the most money he could. Morey had to give him that because we just had one of the most successful seasons in Rockets history. You will do anything to discredit(and you fail hard) the idea that Harden got Cp3 to come play here.

    LOL, ignoring my Clevland part again, I see. But yea a team like the Knicks would definitely take a fly on Cp3. There are bottom feeding organizations willing to give out contracts like that. The fact that you say zero, really shows how little you actually know.

    You didnt answer it, you made up your own narrative in your head to back up your silly assertions. Dont get mad at me for calling it out.

    LOL so this has almost nothing to do with Harden and pretty much everything to do with money. Never mind that I gave you the reports of Harden recruiting Cp3. Never mind that San Antonio cleared cap space for him and he did not even give them a meeting. LMAO "who knows" he would not come here if we had no James Harden. Cp3 wants money and wants to win. You really just don't believe that Cp3 wanted to play with Harden.
    We don't know what teams willing to pay because Cp3's deal happend fairly quickly. We just came off one of our most successful seasons. And Cp3's game ages well.

    Why would you want to pay a 36 year old 40 million a year period, even if it was for 2 years? Oh yea because its worth it. Cp3 got all nba as a 35 year old. As a 33 year old he just came off a 65 win season in Houston. You are dreaming if you didnt think there were teams out there willing to pay for him.

    Teams looking to rebuild don't usually trade for 35-36 year old making 40 million a year. Teams rarely do that. LMAO and if they didnt think Cp3's expiring contract was valuable to contenders why bother trading for him? If its just about his expiring contract, you can find any overpaid bum. Why don't more rebuilding teams trade for Al Horford?
     
  17. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Not necessarily. You're assuming that the Clippers had Kawhi's blessing for each star they contacted.

    The only certain conclusion is that the Clippers would've rather paired Harden with Kawhi instead of Paul George.

    Do you know how trades work? I'm being serious.

    No it's not. How does signing a 33 year old Chris Paul help a rebuilding team?

    Yes they do. They want the salary cap. It happens all the time. Why do you think we were able to trade McGrady's corpse to New York?

    Maybe it had something to do with all those first round draft picks we added in....

    Horford just finished year 1 of his 4 year contract. He'll be a trade target for rebuilding teams in the 4th year of his contract.
     
    #237 wekko368, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  18. BallSoHarden

    BallSoHarden Member

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    Lebron's basketball IQ is on a level that I do not think any other player in the history of the league has achieved. That IQ + physical ability has made him an elite passer for nearly 2 decades and maybe one of the best passers of all time. What makes a player better is not only their individual ability, but their ability to make seemingly average players look very good. Harden is an elite NBA player, but I do not think he's consistently made average players look like they belong on a contender. A lot of Lebron's teammates success comes from his coaching inside and outside of the game. Listen to what guys like Shump and any other teammates say about him, what he tells them about scouting on coaches, players, off the court in their free time.

    Lebron does not shy away in big moments, he knows exactly what to do and is confident in that decision because he knows it is the best decision, whether it works out or not, he is confident in that being the right decision. Harden is a smart player, he doesn't seem to have that level of confidence and desire to orchestrate as much in crunch time of games that matter. Some people may say Lebron is a control freak / micro manager for this, and Harden is more laid back and has faith in his teammates, the reality is he should not have this much faith and should recognize he understands the game better than nearly anyone else on the court. Harden will speak up when mistakes are made, Lebron is more proactive it is almost like he knows someone is going to make a mistake and points it out before it happens, he is on another level.
     
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  19. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    It's not my definition. When one guy is doing major work and is the key cog of an offense(playmaking and scorign) and his usage rate is significantly higher than anyone else on the team, that is heliocentric offense. You saw me say "majority" and tried to use that BS 51-49% argument.

    All possessions. Not just the makes and not just Cp3s highlights either.
    Yea limited offensive possessions which don't tell you the whole story...EXCELLENT WORK. :rolleyes: And in those clips the defenses were sticking to him like glue. They help off Cp3 way more than do off of Harden.

    Please stop making up narratives and facts. Please stop pretending your eye test and denying stats is worth anything.

    Oh yea that's right, there are a bunch of guy's in the league getting doubled like James Harden all the time. There are a ton guys who they played behind just to stop his step back. There are tons of guys in the league who distort the defenses like that. :rolleyes::rolleyes: You really live in a fantasy land dude.

    Goofy, I watched the entire series. I know who the defense of GS cared way more about. It's you who are making the claim that Cp3 was more impactful than Harden and that defenses were keyed in on Cp3 just as much lol. A straight up false and hilarious statement.

    They are all important. All of them go towards the scoreboard. This becomes even more apparent in games that you are tight in or down.

    You can't be competitive in the 4th if you are destroyed through out the game. It's not significantly more important because ALL points in every quarter matters. This is straight up silly. Why dont we just play one quarter of basket ball and be done with it right?

    Im not going over this with you again. They do not tell the whole story.

    I didnt say they were contenders, if we were just going by contenders that year it literally would have just been us and the Warriors. Regardless the Wolves and the Jazz were not "fringe" playoff teams. They were good teams who we had to beat to advance. Please stop acting like these teams were just bottom feeders who you could just coast by, they were not.

    That's not deferring Cp3 didnt have the ball because Harden is our main guy first and foremost. Harden is the best player on our team. He was our best player that playoffs. I gave the stats and then you just disregarded it because you think Cp3 deferred to Harden. Do you realize how dumb you look. Also lol Jimmy Butler plays in a totally different offense. He's not deferring, thats just the way their offense is run. And btw as soon they put AD on Butler, he was neutralized. If you put AD on Harden...LOL, well you saw they had to double. Please....with this nonsense. He had like one 40 point game against the Lakers like Harden has never done that.

    It's not goofy, he literally slid half his body to try to get a hand in there and that's hit, thats not full commit.

    And then Cp3 passes to open Trevor Ariza. Watch the actual clip, the dude follows Ariza. You posted a screen grab and didnt watch the actual play hahaha.
    Again, making up your own narratives and making wild speculations.

    This isnt critical thinking, its you making stuff up.

    Dude, you've given no evidence at all for your assertions. It's only the most logical answer in your mind. Im sad...that for myself that I started talking to you. I'm also sad that you know so little.

    You have no way of knowing that. You dont know what the market was for Cp3. Also if a team becomes a fringe playoff team, what's there to stop other FAs to want to come and play with Cp3 in said "fringe" playoff team. And if he sucks with them, that just helps their tanking process for more years. You don't tank for more than just one year. And btw teams give out bad contracts all the time. Owners care about money as well and Cp3 would draw a crowd.

    Please dude, I don't need you to explain this to me. Chris Paul is not your average older vetran. He was one of the best PGs of all time. The rules are different here.
     
  20. HP3

    HP3 Member

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    Since when do organizations not consult their coveted FA superstars on what other superstars they are want to pair up with them.

    No, the certain conclusion is that Paul George was there last choice in acquiring a superstar.
    Yup. I'm talking about two different time period here if you werent aware.

    How did a 35 year old Chris Paul help a rebuilding team this year? He made their young guys better and got them into the playoffs. They dont even have to make the playoffs, Cp3 being there gives those guys valuable knowledge and experience. Even for one year, that makes the last year of his contract very valuable for trade the next season.

    Cp3 is on his deal for two years. Why not wait to trade for Cp3 the very next year? Or do you think Cp3 is the only bad contract left with two years on the books? McGrady was coming off the books that year that he got traded. Why werent the Knicks able to trade Joakim Noah? Why didnt anyone take Chandler Parsons contract on the Mavericks or the Grizzlies? I don't see teams trading for Blake Griffin either and he's got two years left on his deal? The fact is, this only happens to player's WITH value. You arent going to see rebuilding teams Clamoring for Horford in year 4, no one is gonna wanna pay that for him.

    Look at my previous examples. Teams just don't take on any bad contracts like that.

    This time, I'm done with you for real. Im putting you on ignore so I don't have to read anymore of your drivel. I'm only saying this so you don't waste your time(like I have with you) with a long winded response, its trash anyways.
     

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