Who is better right now James Harden or Lebron James?

I'm actually surprised by the time of possession numbers. I'm not blaming Harden since he obviously had the best overall numbers against the Lakers. But I definitely do see a difference in how he plays vs. how Lebron plays. I think that has more to do in that, even at his age and time in the league, Lebron has more athleticism than Harden. Is it real fair to knock on Harden for not being physically gifted like Lebron?

 

That's also not true according to @aelliott's post right after yours. (I don't totally agree with him. I think one second more per touch is not insignificant over the whole course of a game. One second can be the difference between rushing a shot and correctly developing a play. Enough possessions of that can become a problem.) @jordnnnn never answer my question. Maybe I am on his ignore list.

You see, even you, a staunch defender of Harden's game seem to agree that the eye test feels that Harden does hold the ball longer than most other stars. My question is, why do the stats show otherwise? To me, there are only two possible answers.

(1) Somehow the playing style of Harden/Rockets makes it seem like Harden is more ball dominant than normal. If so, what is it about the style?

Or (2) the stats or the using of the stats is somehow misleading. I don't know how it could be misleading other than perhaps the "slight" difference is not so "slight" after all in reality.

 

Our system and supporting cast are tailored specifically to Harden. The fact that we keep failing proves that, for whatever reason, we can't continue to cater exclusively to him.

 

I believe that because we are labeled an isolation offense and Harden an isolation player(rightfully so %wise) there is a mindset that it’s a majority of our offense and that Harden does it so much more than other star players and it gives this perception that Harden has the ball and dribbles the ball at a rate rivaled by no one in NBA history. Especially amongst fans who don’t really have a positive view of Harden.

In our series with LA Harden isolated about 10 times per game and average 1.08 points per possession. Lebron was a little over 5 isolations per game scoring 1.07 points per possession. So roughly 5 isolation plays more per game in a ~100 possession game. I think the perception would be that the gap would have been much higher. Other high usage guards ranged from 5-8 isolations per game.

I think it’s a case of confirmation bias. The few isolations a game where he truly does pound the ball for 12-16 seconds stick out like a sore thumb and all the other normal quick action decisions mostly go unnoticed and it skews some people’s perception of how often things are really happening. Because statistically on the whole he is right in line with every other high usage playmaker/scorers in the league in terms of time of possession. It’s how every team with a player of this caliber utilizes them.

 

No it's not, and that's why the comparison shouldn't be made. Valid criticism of the lesser player will been seen as "hate" by his fans, and it really isn't. It's calling a spade a spade.

 

Again, you're cherry picking. LA game-planned to double Harden so of course his isolation attempts would be reduced.

You brought up time-of-possession for this postseason at 8.5 minutes, right? In the 2019 postseason, it was 9.5 minutes. In 2018, it was 8.9. In 2017, it was 9.7. In the 2019 regular season, Harden led the league with a time of possession of 9.3 mpg. The next highest was John Wall at 7.8 mpg. That's a huge gap.

I understand that you want to believe it's confirmation bias, but why aren't you open to the idea that people form opinions based on what they've seen over the years?

 

Do you have multiple clips where a super star is doubled and then relocates after the double? Id like to see it.

 

Clips? I've watched enough NBA games and tapes of guys like Kobe, Jordan, Wade, Curry etc.

Harden is by far the most stationary of the group of superstar scoring guards.

 

It could be that Harden isn't relied on to be the sole person to bring the ball up the floor. But once the ball is in his hands at the top of the key, the time spent with him dribbling the ball in an isolation play context is far more than for any other player. Just looking at total time spent with the ball in his hands would not distinguish that.

 

Ya it seems as if @jordnnnn and posters like him don't understand the concept of confounding factors. They literally see "time of possession" stats and that is all the intellectual curiosity they need to fit their narrative that Harden doesn't have severe issues.

 

His dribbling per touch is at the highest in the league, given his time of possession, seconds per touch and the amount of dribbles(Dame actually is very close in this regard as well) It just makes it seem like Harden "hogs" the ball when in reality sometimes he just needs the ball a little more to break down his man. Yea he dribbles more but there are plenty of teams who run their offense in a heliocentric manner like we do, to great success.

 

If you have championship aspirations, that means Harden isn't good enough to be the center of a heliocentric offense.

 

Okay, so you don't have any evidence that dudes just relocate after being doubled then?

 

Nope, wrong. I can give you a list of players you can replace Westbrook with and we instantly become champions. 2 years ago literally proves your assertions are false. Im wondering why I dont just put you on ignore with your trash analysis.

 

2 years ago, Harden wasn't the centerpiece of a heliocentric offense. CP3 and Harden took turns. In fact, when we took the Warriors to 7 games, CP3 was arguably more important than

That list of players to replace Westbrook.....are any of them realistic acquisitions? And if you're saying we can get a superstar to play alongside Harden, then I'm wondering if you know what "heliocentric" means.

 

Having a number 2 guy, doesnt make it not heliocentric, I really you are just misinterpreting the definition. Harden was the focal point, he was the number one option, he was the guy defenses focused on. He had the ball in his hands the most. He won an MVP.

Probably not a lot, but that doesnt mean Harden isnt good enough, he just needs a better number 2. But saying that Harden isnt good enough in a heliocentric offense isnt good enough is actually wrong. You can have a heliocentric offense while having more talent on your roster. Talent wins in the end. Lebron has probably the best second option in the league.

 

Nvm, not worth it.

 

Again, CP3 and Harden played "your turn, my turn". It wasn't heliocentric. When we took the Warriors to 7 games, CP3 was arguably more important than Harden in those 3 wins.

Yes, talent wins. So why isn't more talent willing to play with Harden? Dwight came because he thought they'd be co-stars. That ended badly. CP3 came because we were the only team willing to pay him the max at his age. That ended badly. Westbrook came because of his friendship with Harden, and he's regressed to the point that some people don't consider him a "playmaker" anymore.

There are a lot of star pairings in the NBA who complement each other far better than Harden/Westbrook. Lebron/AD. Luka/Porzingis. Curry/Klay. Lillard/McCollum. Kawhi/George. Even Durant/Irving works better on paper than Harden/Westbrook.

Harden may be a better individual player than most of those guys, but he's not good enough that other superstars will overlook the downsides of playing with him and join him.

 

The one in the Finals.

 

Again, you don't know what Heliocentric means. Heliocentric means running the majority of your offense through your best player and that is what we did. Cp3 getting the second most possessions only furthers that point. Flat out not true. Harden is the one who recieved the majority of the defensive attention.Harden still put up numbers in all of those wins agains the Warriors. Dont get it twisted by Cp3 making great shots. Harden is the focal point, and Harden has the highest impact in distorting the defense. There is no arguing but about anything because its a false statement.

Hmmm..well Dwight sucked, end of story. Look at what he did after he left, absolutely nothing till he got to be a role player with the Lakers. Cp3 came because Harden asked him too, he could have gotten paid elsewhere. Yea, that ended poorly, we never should have traded him. But also he did not perform well last playoffs, and Harden did. Westbrook came, but he was "regressing" before he even came to Houston. We never should have brought him here, what is your point here....Im not seeing it.


Curry and Klay were drafted together, same with McCollum and Lillard, Porzingis did not choose to go to Dallas. AD forced his way to LA and George did too. Do you know how many people have turned down playing with both Kawhi and Lebron?


How do you what goes on in guys heads? Why are you just assuming that guys dont want to play with Harden? You just say stuff and think its true, just ridiculous arguments all around.