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25th Amendment, Section 4: Declaration by vice president and principal officers

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Xerobull, Oct 6, 2020.

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  1. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum

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    Section 4: Declaration by vice president and principal officers

    Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.[5]

    Section 4 addresses the case of an incapacitated president who is unable or unwilling to execute the voluntary declaration contemplated in Section 3; it is the amendment's only section that has never been invoked. It allows the vice president, together with a "majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide", to declare the president "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" in a written declaration. The transfer of authority to the vice president is immediate, and (as with Section 3) the vice president becomes acting president – not president – while the president remains in office, albeit divested of all authority.[6]

    The "principal officers of the executive departments" are the fifteen Cabinet members enumerated in the United States Code at 5 U.S.C 101:[7][8][9]

    A president thus declared unable to serve may subsequently issue a declaration stating that he is able. This marks the beginning of a four-day period during which the vice president remains acting president.[10][11]:38n137 If by the end of this period the vice president and a majority of the "principal officers of the executive departments" have not issued a second declaration of the president's incapacity, then the president resumes his powers and duties.

    If a second declaration of incapacity is issued within the four-day period, then the vice president remains acting president while Congress considers the matter. If within 21 days the Senate and the House determine, each by a two-thirds vote, that the president is incapacitated, then the vice president continues as acting president; otherwise the president resumes his powers and duties.[note 1]

    Section 4's requirements for the vice president to remain acting president indefinitely – a declaration by the vice president together with a majority of the principal officers or other body, then (if the president makes a counter-declaration) a two-thirds vote of the House and a two-thirds vote of the Senate – contrasts with the Constitution's procedure for removal of the president from office for "high crimes and misdemeanors" – a majority of the House (Article I, Section 2, Clause 5) followed by two-thirds of the Senate (Article I, Section 3, Clause 6).[13][14]
     
    #1 Xerobull, Oct 6, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
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  2. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Dude is high as a kite right now.

    DD
     
    #2 DaDakota, Oct 6, 2020
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  3. Two Sandwiches

    Two Sandwiches Member

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    Been asking this question for about two years...
     
    #3 Two Sandwiches, Oct 6, 2020
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  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    This seems promising, then you remember who those cabinet secretaries actually are.
     
    #4 SamFisher, Oct 6, 2020
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  5. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum

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    Yeah, serious flaw when you can pick the people who have the power to declare you incompetent.

    But there is an alternative:

    "or of such other body as Congress may by law provide"
     
    #5 Xerobull, Oct 7, 2020
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  6. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    He's been tweeting to his own campaign's twitter account this morning like he's lost all sense of reality.





     
    #6 Andre0087, Oct 7, 2020
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  7. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    I love writing "thank you!" to his own campaign, as if they might at any moment send out something he doesn't like. :D
     
    #7 B-Bob, Oct 7, 2020
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  8. Nook

    Nook Member

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    This.

    Himmler isn't turning on Hitler until the Russians are invading Germany..... just how it is, until then everyone will slap a smile on their COVID infected bodies and let the good times roll.
     
    #8 Nook, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  9. RayRay10

    RayRay10 Houstonian

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    I guess no one should vote for Hillary this time around.
     
    #9 RayRay10, Oct 7, 2020
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  10. Nook

    Nook Member

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    This was supposed to be his big splash right before the election.... this was supposed to make everyone forget COVID, forget all of the Trump administration corruption and everyone was supposed to buy into the hand picked, at best half truths that Trump and Barr decide to leak to the press. The problem is that this isn't three years ago.... Trump's "puppy pass" expired a long time ago, people have incredible fatigue and they just do not believe the President. Even those that will vote for him, they just do not believe him except his very strongest of supporters.

    Trump and Barr never accounted for the fact that "alternative facts" only lasts so long before the overwhelming majority of people make a definitive judgment that Trump and everyone around him isn't trustworthy under any circumstances. Barr tipped his hand a couple weeks ago when he said he couldn't believe that the media and the US people are not devastated by the information he declassified.

    I recently saw some polling data that showed nearly 50% of the American people are concerned that Trump or his surrogates will attempt to fraudulently alter or change election results. That wasn't even a consideration before this administration.
     
    #10 Nook, Oct 7, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  11. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum

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    25th Section 4 is a way for the Republicans to save face and start to rebuild credibility by invoking and yanking Trump out of power before any sort of transfer drama shenanigans in the new year. "We're with you, 'murica, Trump is bad, watch us do the right thing!' and he becomes the (guilty) scapegoat for all of their crimes.

    I guarantee this is being discussed, it's just timing now to wring every last drop of leverage out of Trump before they kick him to the ditch.

    I guess the silver lining here, if it goes down this way, is that Trump will pay, even if the GOP reasons aren't altruistic.
     
    #11 Xerobull, Oct 7, 2020
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  12. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum

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    Well lookie here

     
    #12 Xerobull, Oct 9, 2020
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  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    I was just wondering if Trump knows that his cabinet are the ones who could determine his fate.
     
    #13 rocketsjudoka, Oct 9, 2020
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  14. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Yes I'm very doubtful this will happen but the fact that the 25th Amendment is even being widely discussed just shows how crazy things are right now.
     
    #14 rocketsjudoka, Oct 9, 2020
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  15. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum

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    I doubt it. I think he learns laws by breaking them.
     
    #15 Xerobull, Oct 9, 2020
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  16. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/co...ential-capacity-under-25th-amendment-n1242717
    Pelosi introduces bill to create a commission on presidential capacity under the 25th Amendment
    Pelosi said that the measure is not intended specifically for President Donald Trump, but she suggested he was the impetus for needing it.

    Oct. 9, 2020, 10:26 AM CDT / Updated Oct. 9, 2020, 10:56 AM CDT
    By Rebecca Shabad


    WASHINGTON — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., introduced legislation Friday that would create a bipartisan commission to determine a sitting president’s ability to carry out the duties of the office.

    At a press conference unveiling the legislation with its original author, Rep. Jamie Raskin, D-Md., Pelosi said the measure is not intended specifically for President Donald Trump, but she suggested he was the impetus for it.


    “This is not about President Trump. He will face the judgment of the voters, but he shows the need for us to create a process for future presidents,” she said. "This legislation applies to future presidents, but we are reminded of the necessity of action by the health of the current president."

    The idea for the legislation stems from the 25th Amendment, which provides procedures for transferring power to the vice president in case of the president's death, incapacitation, removal or resignation. The amendment was ratified and approved in the wake of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. One of its sections provides the vice president and the majority of either the Cabinet "or such other body as Congress may by law provide" with a mechanism to transfer power from the president.

    The commission would consist of 16 members, chosen both by Democrats and Republicans, who are medical experts or former high-ranking executive branch officials such as former members of a president’s Cabinet. The 17th member, the chair, would be selected by the rest of the commission’s members.

    Under the legislation, Congress could pass a concurrent resolution requiring the commission to conduct a medical exam of the president to determine his or her capacity to continue the job. The commission would then report its findings to Congress, and if it found that presidential incapacity exists, the vice president would immediately assume the role of acting president.

    When the 25th Amendment was ratified after Kennedy’s assassination, Congress did not create that independent body. Raskin says lawmakers should now pass the measure to create such a body for future presidents.

    Asked Friday if Trump has met the threshold to invoke the 25th Amendment, Pelosi said, “That’s not for us to decide.”

    Trump, meanwhile, tried to turn the bill back on his Democratic opponent, Joe Biden, falsely claiming Pelosi is "looking at the 25th Amendment in order to replace Joe Biden with Kamala Harris."



     
    #16 rocketsjudoka, Oct 9, 2020
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  17. IBTL

    IBTL Member

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    this is one of those times where the song really is about you trump
     
    #17 IBTL, Oct 9, 2020
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  18. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum

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    It’s all coming together.
     
    #18 Xerobull, Oct 9, 2020
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  19. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    fake news
     
    #19 dachuda86, Oct 9, 2020
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  20. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum

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    The 25th Amendment is fake news?

    [​IMG]
     
    #20 Xerobull, Oct 9, 2020
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