The Astros during the Luhnow era (2012-2019) had a winning percentage of .507. They went 657-639 in regular season games during that time. They had 3 seasons in which they won 100 games, they had 3 seasons in which they lost 100 games. Their average record during that time was 82-80. They made the playoffs in 4 out of the 8 seasons. Luhnow rightly gets credit for building a World Series winner in Houston. That should be balanced against the cheating scandal, the general cutthroat mentality he displayed, and his overall mediocre record.
If tanking to rebuild is such a terrible thing, why are other teams trying to emulate it? "Overall record" doesn't count to me given the situation. You're right on the 1st 3 points. One thing, maybe the biggest thing that led to the scandal, is that PR matters. Crane and Luhnow were (are?) completely tone-deaf.
I never said tanking is terrible. But tanking to build a winning team isn’t some genius move only great GMs do. It’s a pretty straightforward play to turn a team with limited resources into a winner; the trick is convincing the owner to go along with it. If you’re going to ignore “overall record” when evaluating a GM, I don’t know what to tell ya.
It was the owner's idea, and it was considered heresy in most baseball circles. Can't rebuild anything before you tear it down. All good, I don't know what to tell you either regarding overall record, other than: '12-14: 176-310 (.362, 58 wins) '15-'20: 510-358 (.588, 95 wins) Looks to me like he did a pretty good job.
You don't want a GM with cutthroat mentality? That's exactly the kind of GM I want and the kind of GM that's needed to compete with the big boys.
I am ok with doing the maximum allowed under the rules, but I don’t want to be a fan of teams doing shady ****. The Osuna **** was a big turnoff for me on Luhnow.
It was NOT Cranes idea to tank. It was part of the infamous binder plan Luhnow presented in his interview.
Why trading for Osuna gave them their best chance to win a WS. You dont want a GM that gives his team their best chance to win a WS. The NYY/Cubs/Red Sox have acquired the same type of players and the media didn't/hasn't said a thing. Ever ask yourself why this is? If you're going to compete with the big boys these are the types of moves that HAVE to be made, Why? Because these are the type of moves the big boys make regularly.
Oh, ok, it wasn't the owner's idea, it was the owner's baseball chief's idea, who was hired by said owner to implement said owner's vision, who had that idea, the idea that was approved by the owner and implemented by his #2 man. I see the massive difference. BTW: Crane said to expect bad times the minute he bought the team. He absolutely called for the 3 years of ****. I'm not sure what you remember.
There’s only a massive difference in the context of this conversation. You tried to say earlier that it was Cranes idea as a means to defend Luhnow. Crane didn’t call for losing until after he had hired Luhnow.
So winning doesn't come first for you. Duly noted, Other teams/cities/fans dont feel the way you do about this and if you want to win big you have to play by their rules.
Absolutely NOT true. There are plenty of teams who won it all and did it the right way (in fact I would say the vast majority of World Series champion rosters have not had any players credibly accused of heinous crimes). The tanking, the Osuna move, the draft pool manipulation, the prospect service time manipulation...those are all shortcuts that are varying degrees of shady. And yes, winning does not come first for me. There’s **** like clearing a low bar of character and integrity that matter more. I’m no crusader. I was totally fine with the stuff like tanking and the draft pool manipulation and the prospect service time manipulation. But the Osuna thing was just over the line, partly because it was unnecessary.
Plenty of your said “winning” teams also give second chances to players with just as (if not moreso) egregious offenses. Some are still actively playing. Plenty of past WS teams had assholes, or players of questionable moral fiber... but they could hit or pitch, thus they had a job. And at some point, after the legal stuff is done, do you believe these players should be forever banned? Teams throughout baseball are actively trying to emulate the Astros strategy, including the one in Baltimore that is run by Luhnow’s former #1. Teams will still look to employ GM’s with a cutthroat, win-at-all-costs, mentality... and ones that are smarter than the rest of them.
I didn’t say all other winning teams avoid the shady ****, just that most World Series teams do not have players who did anything as bad as Osuna did. We’ll see if any of Luhnow’s lieutenants who are GMs end up doing shady **** that’s over the line. There’s a gargantuan difference between being smart/using advanced methods to gain an advantage (like tanking and manipulating draft pools and service time clocks) and win at all costs moves like trading for a guy who beat the everloving **** out of his baby mama.
