[The Ringer] Kevin O'Connor Mad At Harden, Thinks MDA Sucks At His Job

He joined 2 years ago, I actually didn’t even realize it. Not worth arguing with bro...like you said we’ve seen this stuff in waves constantly over the past decade. There’s no saving ignorance.

 

He got AP stats under his belt. Subject matter expert.

 

Let's not forget how I told ya small ball wasn't going to work. Yet I got bashed by most on Cf

 

LMAO if you actually gave any type of reasoning besides "I PUBLISH STATS IN SCIENCE JOURNALS) than maybe I could take you seriously. I understood their arguments. They arent good, its literally move Harden off ball and that's it, no examination of anything else(except pace which I agree with). And Ive already explained that we dont have enough playmaking for that to work.

But please...knowledgable guy explain why TS% doesnt work??

 

Go rewatch game 3-4, you are wrong. It's not a straw man, they were doubling Harden the whole game...good god.

 

Explain yourself stats master,...prove you dont talk out of your ass....you wont. Because neither your nor the other guy can back up what you say.

 

Stop being explosively and passionately stupid. That video killed your argument in detail.

 

Nvm

 

if you call harden's prime his houston years and kobe's prime starting with the lakers 2nd championship (doesn't end up mattering much what year you start with):

harden 24.1 PER, 57.7 TS%, 0.175 WS48
kobe 23.7 PER, 54.6 TS%, 0.172 WS48

so very similar on the league-adjusted numbers of PER and WS48 and harden at least as far ahead on TS% as you would expect for the different eras. just using 25-32 seasons would actually make it look slightly better for harden.

 

Don't bother arguing with the guy, he doesn't use stats, only eye tests. Oh yea...and lol FG%. He doesnt listen to any reasoning except ones that support his preconceived biases.

 

I can't speak to @fchowd0311 argument, I'm sure it amounts to more than move Harden off ball though, as does mine.

But, we have actual coaches and players and people that live ball say the same thing, dismissing their opinion as stupid, I don't know.

Clearly the team has an issue with double teams. It's also usually a BAD idea to double players without the ball, so yeah, a basic counter to that would play Harden off the ball more, that way defenses aren't keying in on him.

If Harden is running through a screen it makes it a lot harder to double team him. I don't think there needs to be a deep examination of this. It's simple basketball chemistry. It's a simple counter to the traps and double teams he's seein. Have Rivers, Russ, handle the ball more, move him off screens, get him moving so that defenses can't key in to him. Theoretically, using Russ as PG works, because teams actually DO play Russ as a threat no matter how garbage people think he is. They do not give him lanes, they do not give him layups...so if you have to worry about Russ beating his man and getting a layup AND have to worry about Harden cutting...well, that's very difficult to defend.

I don't need math or analytics for this. Just like Lebron didn't need analytics to know he'd pair up well with Anthony Davis or that Rondo would be a good addition to the team.

Now, I understand this is hard to implement before a crucial playoff game...which is why the coaching scheme failed. At one point, we were using Russ correctly too, was that rigght around the break? Before the all-star game? And he was beasting, his 'analytic' stats said so. He completely stopped taking threes and just did what he does well.

Obviously this is the only way this team works, Russ has to have the ball more, he's not a threat standing behind the three point line, Harden is. It makes sense that he should be more of the PG when they are both on the court but they still have him standing behind the 3 point line...which is not good.

People are right that Russ isn't playing well because we're not using him well. You can make even superstars look garbage if you put them in spots to screw up. Having Russ watching the ball, ready to receive it for a three, is a failed offensive set. It sets up Russ for failure when everyone knows he can't shoot 3s reliably.

It's no different than how some players become all-stars once put in the right role, someone finally realized their strengths, and the player is allowed to play to their strengths.

So yeah, MDA screwed up, for most of the season we've put Russ in the CP3 role and are mad that he's not CP3. Russ has always been a ball-dominant guard that needs the ball, it's why Harden came off the bench in the first place.

 

All whilst getting double-teamed. But apparently Harden is the reason why we're 3-1 down.

 

Spot on. Been saying since the trade that for this to work Westbrook needs to be the PG and Harden back to his SG role, off the ball, coming off screens more. If Harden refuses to do that, because it's too tiring or whatever then screw him. Not sure what goes on behind closed doors, but it's clear both Harden and MDA are a big problem here. It's probably a combination of MDA believing - with Morey in his ear - that Harden iso produces the most PPS or some **** so he just rolls with that and Harden believing he needs the ball in his hands to be successful. To what degree we don't know, but I'm tired of this offense to the point of not caring what they do next. Nothing will change as long as we keep being stubborn and history tells us neither Harden nor MDA will change their aways.

 

but what does that mean? being off the ball doesn't just solve things because you're off the ball. no more than having the ball would suddenly be a great adjustment for a guy who is used to playing off the ball. nothing about the way harden moves, in terms of lateral movement or just plain speed, tells me he would be good running around and coming off of screens. all of his shot mechanics, from not being a very tall player, to the release point on his shot, to not having a super-quick release, don't point to him being a great guy to have coming off of screens. the defense would be able to challenge him very well. honestly i can't even picture harden catching, turning, and shooting all in one motion. i don't even know if he's made to do that. there's a reason not a lot of guys do this. it's not easy.

we already have plays where harden comes out and gets the ball while we set a screen so harden can be on the move, but outside of that, if harden got the ball after being off ball, he would either catch and shoot, which he doesn't seem to do at any sort of elite level that's much better than the rest of the rockets, or he would square up and iso just like he does now and the lakers would send a double. except up to that point, we would be relying on westbrook to run the offense and we would just have to hope the lakers somehow forget about harden and leave him open for westbrook to pass to, which is unlikely since they're never going to double russ.

we were using russ almost exactly the same as now. harden would get trapped, we would hit russ near the 3 point line and then he would fly to the basket and put pressure on the D or get a layup. except now he is either still injured or the lakers are doing a good job at the basket because now russ just catches it and stands at the 3 point line and then doesn't drive even if no one is guarding him because he doesn't seem to be able to finish. i suspect we will find out russ is more hampered than indicated once this series ends.

 

I think goes not just for Harden but the whole O. We need more off ball movement.

Just also to note there has been some success with Harden playing off the ball with Green on the switched PNR.

 

Yes, this was a common talking point when we got Westbrook I remember. I think it could work a lot better, not that Russ would be the PG, but when they share the court he should usually be the one bringing the ball up the court. He doesn't have to initiate the offense at the top, they could run harden off a curl just to get him the ball. People have to remember, even Westbrook at his worse is a threat to drive and get a n easy bucket, to have defenses worrying about both?

BUT according to MDA the reason Harden doesn't move off-ball is that he thinks it would wear him out. I don't know if that is true, maybe it is, maybe during the season he doesn't have the stamina for it...but this is the playoffs, you don't have to do it EVERY game, but you do have to counter what the Lakers are doing. Even if it is something you're not used to doing you have to try. It's crazy how the Lakers are playing small ball now isn't it? It's not something they did in the regular season with any regularity, but here they are, adjusting to us to beat us.

 

Harden has played off ball in his career though. OKC of course. I believe he was one of the best off-ball players then? These guys claim that's what the stats say, I have no reason to believe they're lying but I do know he played off-ball a lot in OKC because they did eventually have to play Russ-Durant-Harden in crucial moments of the game. I really don't care to go stat digging here but there is evidence that he can play off ball. He's not clumsy, he's pretty agile.

Also, yes he can catch and shoot. The only reason you don't believe he can do it is because as you say, he gets the ball and goes into ISO mode at once a lot of time. Which, is a mistake because of course the Lakers are going to double him when they can.

At some point in Game two we had to realize this is what they were going to do and he and coach had to realize being quicker with decisions will be key to breakin the double team. A lot of time we're just submitting to it.

As for Russ, the PNR stats are true. That's a main part of his effectiveness that doesn't exist here because we have no PNR players anymore outside of Green and that has been taken away from him.

People want to trash Russ but this situation he's in isn't good. Russ was a fool for coming here when Miami wanted him, him and Bam and Butler would have tore through the East. I have no doubts about that. Spoelstra would have used him correctly and the mentality of that team fits him more than this one does.

 

Who are those people you speak about? Zach Lowe and Coach Nick(who I think are respectable) talk about it...but they dont talk about it like it's some grand solution that will make our offense better. Coach Nick just talks about posting up more(which will lead to more turnovers) everyone talks about moving off ball like we have many play makers on this team, Lowe included.

Alright dude, you clearly have put more effort into this post than anything fchowd0311 has ever done of explaining himself(ever because he can never back up what he says), I will give you that. But it's not as simple as "hey move Harden off ball" Realistically we've seen Russ all season, he was only good for like 2 months. And against non playoff defenses. Simply put the Russ only lineups have been bad all year. Giving him the ball more with his decision making is asking for MORE turnovers when we cant afford them. Its asking for MORE inefficient offense when we cant afford it. Rondo playing good right now will probably quickly diminish quickly against a better defense like the Clippers.

Russ isnt playing well because he's just not good, what was his excuse the last 3-4 years of him not being that good? And we now see that it was a mistake for them to have ever traded Harden instead of Russ. Giving the ball to the more ineffiient player and expecting him to be better than he has been even with Harden's "off ball" whatever is asking for failure imo. I think the coaching staff knows that too.

 

Harden was much younger and weighed a lot LESS back then and he had NOWHERE near the defensive attention that he did.