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[OFFICIAL] Bernie Sanders for President thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. DreamShook

    DreamShook Member

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  2. justtxyank

    justtxyank Member

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  3. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    It's not largely false and yes I did watch the whole interview.
     
  4. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    "Bernie Sanders Has One Chance to Defeat Joe Biden":

    https://www.truthdig.com/articles/bernie-sanders-has-one-chance-to-defeat-joe-biden/

    Bernie Sanders Has One Chance to Defeat Joe Biden
    Anis Shivani / Common Dreams
    March 6, 2020

    For the second time (after the heart attack last fall), the Bernie Sanders movement is on life support. Let us not sugarcoat this: last night was worse than the worst-case scenario any Bernie supporter had imagined. The drastic slippage in Texas, Massachusetts, Maine, Minnesota, and even Vermont, let alone Oklahoma, Tennessee, Virginia, and North Carolina, represents a mortal threat to the movement. But there’s a glimmer of hope yet, because it was only three days ago that Biden had been written off, so things can change quickly. Of course, we now have the irrefutable fact on the ground of Biden’s delegate haul and his victory in a whole bunch of states, prompted by support from African Americans, older voters, and suburbanites, so it won’t be easy.

    But with continued backing from younger and Latino voters, Bernie needs to quickly figure out a counter-strategy to come roaring back. And come back he can, despite the terrain in the rest of March being quite unfavorable to him, as well as the danger of the media narrative going past the point of reversibility.

    Though it’s not in Bernie’s nature to follow a game plan of the sort I’m suggesting, I hope his advisers will convince him that at stake is the fate of the movement, and the enthusiasm of the millions of engaged voters he’s inspired, and that he must rapidly shift his approach. Bernie should demand one-on-one debates with Biden, which would certainly be facilitated by Warren dropping out and not sniping at him, but it’s something he should ask for even if the field isn’t cleared.

    The gloves must immediately come off when it comes to treating Joe Biden. He’s been let off all too easily this entire campaign, given his atrocious fifty-year anti-liberal record. Blanketing the airwaves to the extent the campaign can, and picking strategic spots to maintain some momentum through the rest of March (probably Ohio, Washington, Michigan, and Arizona), Sanders needs to do to Biden what he should have done to Elizabeth Warren long ago—that is, make his opponent appear ridiculously unelectable, which in fact he is.

    1. Press hard on Biden’s record beyond support for the Iraq War, unfavorable trade bills, Social Security cuts, and the bankruptcy bill, all of which Bernie did bring up on Tuesday night. But why does it feel like Bernie’s critique of Biden only starts after 2003? What about Biden’s disqualifying record on the war on drugs, the promotion of mass incarceration, and Patriot Act-like attacks on civil liberties, going back to the 1980s and 1990s? What about his opposition to busing and desegregation? What about his horrible treatment of Anita Hill? What about his complicity with Obama’s barbarous deportation policy? What about his advocacy of the kinds of financial deregulation that led to the economic crash?

    Bernie did make a start Tuesday evening, but he has been all too reluctant to go after Biden, even when numerous opportunities to draw distinctions have presented themselves. This lack of appetite to engage almost killed his campaign by way of Warren in the fall, until she was questioned by the media and failed to stand firmly behind Medicare for All. If Bernie keeps calling Biden “my good friend Joe,” he just adds to the impression in voters’ minds that while Biden may have lost a few marbles he is still fundamentally a decent guy and deserves a shot as Barack Obama’s legitimate successor.

    2. We’ve heard Bernie’s stump speech, with its completely warranted emphasis on the fossil fuel, pharmaceutical, and other industries that are the culprits in our economic serfdom, but for now Bernie needs to come up with a brand-new script. Clearly, voters across the country on Super Tuesday rejected association with “democratic socialism” the way it’s been misrepresented in the media, and bought into the reactionary idea that, for example, getting rid of private insurance would be too disruptive and not even doable in any future political scenario. But Bernie’s dreams for economic equality seem fantastical only by comparison to the utterly false impression of Biden as a capable executive who’s always stood by the little guy.

    Bernie needs to zero in on the astonishing aspects of Biden’s resume we haven’t heard enough about throughout this campaign. Biden not only supported the Iraq War but was one of its most enthusiastic cheerleaders. His own president didn’t go for Biden’s advice on Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, so while he may have been a boisterous speechmaker in the Senate his actual record consists of a half-century of gross misjudgments. The same goes for mass incarceration, where he was not just a passive supporter but one of the leading articulators of the whole apparatus of imprisonment that came into being and still exists. He should be challenged on unjustifiable votes in these areas—from wholehearted support for neoliberal trade agreements to Bush/Cheney-like civil rights violations to the persistent aura of misogyny and racism throughout his career—without any regard for his feelings.

    3. Change the discourse from “Trump is the most existential threat we face” to “Biden will herald the return of everything that caused Trump in the first place and help bring about something even worse than Trump.” I’ve always been against Bernie taking up the theme of Trump as the worst modern president because each time he does so he makes Biden’s superficial case for electability all the stronger. If Trump really is the greatest threat to the republic, then why take a chance with Bernie who promises a political revolution? Why not go with Obama’s vice president who looks like he might restore dignity and take us back to some semblance of normality?

    Bernie hasn’t wanted to go anywhere near that, but I don’t think he can win the nomination without taking on Obama’s horrendous record on domestic and foreign policy, from drones and assassinations to deficit hawkery and deportations. What Bernie has wanted to do so far is to somehow bypass the sad truth about the last Democratic president and not give the electorate too much to absorb, since Obama remains popular, certainly among those who turned out in droves to support Biden on Super Tuesday.

    How, then, to break the link between Biden and Obama? It can only be done by making the desire to go back to Obama less appealing. And by pointing out example after example of where Biden made errors of judgment by standing with Obama on the wrong things, such as cutting Social Security and Medicaid in pursuit of an elusive grand bargain with Republican deficit hawks, or by going along with the continuation of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan despite his own doubts. I know this is a lot to ask for from Bernie, and harder still for not having been attempted before, but I don’t see a way around it.
    more at the link




     
  5. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    .

    The current 152,186,000 jobs net us 3.46 trillion in taxes. Even at triple the number of jobs 456,558,000 - $10.38T in taxes you are still short 3.5-4T in funding yearly ....
     
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  6. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Question to Bernie supporters -

    Do you agree with the above statement that "Democratic Socialism" is being misrepresented ? If so - Why.
     
  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    From which group? Many equate it to Communism which it isn't. I personally think it's a dumb move by Sanders to label himself such a thing. Many people will be easily swayed by their bubbles media sources that it means total elimination of private property.

    In a country that went through decades of the Cold War and McCarthyism, ya it probably it's the brightest idea to call yourself a democratic socialist. It's probably the reason why there is such as large divide between support of Bernie between young people and old people. The further removed you are from that Cold War era, the more welcoming you probably are of socialist plans understanding that a free market system will still be in place.
     
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  8. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    I don't hear anyone talking about McCarthy or the Cold War .... what I hear about is dollars and cents. Is there a misrepresentation along that line ?!
     
  9. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    And no one who does a quick basic arithmetic test on the viability of some of his programs on Twitter really did any proper math. For example, your last post about even if you triple the amount of jobs, the cost of his plans would still not he covered, You are ignoring hundreds of other variables just by assuming there is one only way to create more tax revenue which is more jobs. In reality, more purchasing power by the individual middle class and poor citizen would also be a significant factor. In stead of a large portion of citizens worrying about medical bills and student loan debt, they will be worrying about buying a new Ford or taking out a mortgage and becoming home owners.

    That's the problem with these quick 5 minute Twitter math analysis.

    And no, for many Americans especially the peers I served with in Marine infantry along with their parents and grandparents, the mindset of the Cold War and the red scare is still deeply imbedded in their world view and the GOP has taken advantage of that for the past 60 years by equating any government programs to communism and Bernie Sanders definitely isn't helping by labeling his movement with "socialist".
     
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  10. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    Figure this is as good a thread as any to put this in...

     
  11. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    One thing you are discounting here -

    Your idea that people are going to have more disposable income is misplaced - Some may , many wont.

    Not everyone goes to college. Those people who don't are now going to be paying for those that do - they will have less disposable income paying that "tax".

    Those that do go to college will pay that tax for life instead of just paying off their X amount , there's the possibility they actually pay more in the long run , particularly if its a percentage of income.

    All the money currently going towards insurance premiums will now go to M4A - and then some according to Bernie's plan which is estimated at $4T per while last year we spent just over $3.8T. Right now , everyone doesn't contribute - Under Bernie's plan - literally everyone will pay something. Again , some people (particularly the poor) will have less disposable income while everyone else is still forking over a large percentage of earnings - the costs aren't going down and lets be honest - the costs of both college and healthcare are likely to increase with subsidies as people aren't afraid to go to the Dr and others take advantage of "free college" - the volume goes up , so do the costs.

    All you are proposing is moving the cost around.
     
  12. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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  13. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    So to "Fix" it you want to burden "everyone" with an X dollar a month cost - even for those who A didn't go to college , B walked away with no debt and C already paid off their debt.

    While the guy with the $400 a month bill to pay now has more disposable income -

    Everyone else has less disposable income .....
     
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  14. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    The entire student loan forgiveness program for both Warren and Sanders is completely paid by the wealth tax of 2% for any wealth over 50 million dollars and 3% over 1 billion dollars which generates 2.75 trillion dollars in tax revenue over ten years which is more than enough to pay off student loans debt according to UC Berkeley economists who actually did math besides basic Twitter math. The wealth tax will effect 75,000 households and I'm assuming none of those households are yours.

    http://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/saez-zucman-wealthtax-warren.pdf

    I know what you are going to do. You are going to move goal posts to "wealth tax is unconstitutional" even though I showed you the American Bar Assosication's more thoughtful argument of it's constitutionality than your argument against it. Not only do you believe it's unconstitutional, which is a fine argument to make, you go a step further and claim that it's objectively been determined that a wealth tax is unconstitutional.
     
    #2454 fchowd0311, Mar 7, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
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  15. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    One of Bernie's biggest weaknesses is his rhetorical skills. The dude just isn't charismatic at all. He usually just repeats the same lines over and over. It's unfortunate because him and Warren are probably the only two candidates that acknowledge the deep systemic trends that have faced the country for over 50 years.

    I think this guy is far better at explaining these issues in a more charismatic way with far better rhetorical arguments.

    I suggest some watch these entire clips. My favorite point of his is explaining how the wealthy benefit from massive government infrustrcture than poor people.

    He also makes it clear that Billionaires shouldn't exist with a conditional which is "when 60% of the country lives pay check to pay check and 40% either have no healthcare or are underinsured". He's fine with billionares existing after these systemic problems are solved. If someone can earn billions of dollars of wealth with those conditions solved, then so be it.



     
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  16. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    You might think that wealth tax is a wonderful idea for this cause .... but that's opening a can of worms that's gonna expand every time they come up with some pet project to fund

    I think a little personal responsibility goes a long way.

    If someone like me - A dirt poor minority from a single parent home can earn a college degree and walk away without a mountain of debt - Anyone can do it or at least make the damage manageable. Sure , that rules out the most prestigious universities ....
     
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  17. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    What's your age?

    And honestly, anecdotal arguments have only so much away. Hence why we need to look at 50 year trends.
     
  18. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    I wont say this doesnt play a significant role, but the bigger role of mistrust is efficiency of government. This old style of government that slow rolls decisions to maintain control is not working. It was not how we came to power on a global scale. Mainstream Americans do not trust the government to handle day to day activities efficiently, especially when it comes to important measures like health care.
     
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  19. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    It all depends on when you attended college, it was just easier then, some people graduated without debt at all.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Jayzers_100

    Jayzers_100 Member

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    If you only listen to YouTube compilations I can’t take you seriously if you think Biden sounds like an idiot. If you listen to full interviews and speeches he’s more than competent. This isn’t Gary Johnson or some buffoon vying for support, it’s who Obama picked as his VP. Same guy who destroyed Palin and Ryan in debates
     
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