I'm not supporting either of them in the primaries. I would support either of them over Trump. I'm not sure how you got that from my post.
To clarify, I'm thinking of things like Obamacare or Dodd Frank or even the stimulus package. The types of big initiatives that require a lot of compromise to even get to 50% in the House or 60% in the Senate. His big VA bill passed with 90+ votes in the Senate. That's either the sign of brilliant bipartisan work or a non-controversial bill that isn't difficult to pass. His comments on AOC and M4A yesterday don't seem hopeful as to his ability to actually accomplish very much. She showed a bit of a reality-check and he swatted it away.
Can you link to these comments. Nevermind. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/18/bernie-sanders-ocasio-cortez-medicare-for-all-115913
On what basis does he not do "behind the scenes" stuff? He is a ranking member on both the Senate Budget Committee (one of the most powerful committees in the Senate) and the Health/Education/Labor/Pensions (HELP) Committee. Those appointments aren't just handed out randomly, you have to have good relationships with the senate majority/minority leader and work with people. The idea of Bernie just being a complete gadfly who refuses to work or talk with anyone ever is an insane exaggeration. Yes of course, he is not an overly friendly or gregarious dude but the guy does work with people. He is also capable of compromise. He voted to pass Obamacare despite maintaining his advocacy for single-payer, he exchanged his vote for $11 billion in funding for community health centers. He also voted to confirm Merrick Garland, despite publicly stating that he believed there were more progressive judges out there. Watch this clip of a Republican congressman talking about Bernie Sanders:
Not gonna continue this with you because I don't like just talking negative about Bernie. I can link to several articles with fellow legislators staitng that Bernie does not play well with others and his record of accomplishments speaks for itself. If he wants to get these ambitious programs implemented he will need to work with a lot more people and be willing to compromise greatly. And he already shot down the idea of compromise by going in on AOC. I never said he could not work with anybody,
Disagree. Bernie understands that he can't show his hand too soon. He isn't a fool, he knows that with the current composition of Congress it would be next to impossible to pass Medicare for All. He is just focused on staying in "campaign mode" and building up the public will/pressure through the primaries and the general. "Medicare for All, but we probably will have to compromise" is a more realistic, but uninspiring campaign slogan. If you talked to AOC in private she would acknowledge that that was the answer Bernie had to go with during the CNN town hall for the sake of the campaign. But even a generous public option (like Warren's plan) would also most likely not pass in its written form through Congress. If a M4All legislation push fails in Bernie's first 2 years as president (which in all likelihood it will, even with Democrats having control of the Senate. ) it needs to be clear that there will be punitive electoral consequences for people who oppose the legislation and/or are unwilling to come to the negotiating table in good faith in 2022. This includes conservative Dems as well as Republicans. Bernie will have to use the bully pulpit in ways recent presidents have never even tried (well, I guess Trump would be the exception).
How do you know this about Bernie? All I have been hearing from his supporters is that he was using things like M4A as a starting point in negotiations and that has blown to hell. You do this stuff behind closed doors not out in public especially with somebody as high profile as AOC. This is all your theory of the case and its your right to have it but that does not mean it is true and how well do you really know Bernie and his thought process?
1. Yes, Bernie has likely made many friends as well as enemies while in Congress. I'm sure I can find many legislators saying good things about him (like that Youtube clip) and you can find many saying bad. That politico article was essentially a hit piece during the height of the 2016 primaries, and a lot of the "sources" in the article were longtime Hillary associates, including Barney Frank. Now, do I believe Bernie plays up some of his accomplishments? Yup, but I also don't believe the complete disregard that that politico piece had for his record. Just for fun, go to govtrack.us website and look at Clinton's primary sponsorships while in the senate. Just a bunch of post office renamings and commemorations (unfair to evaluate her like this, but just using your standards.). But she was the "get stuff done" candidate. The truth is she was well-known in the establishment and had greased the right hands during her career, so this idea of "working together" was not based on any tangible legislative record, just her relationships with party elites. 2., If you are speaking of compromising with other Democrats, I can see that. But if you're talking about working with Republicans, it ain't happening. The reality is that the Republicans are solely fixated on obstructing anything the Democrats do, the same way they stonewalled Obama from 2009-12. It took Obama awhile to realize that Boehner and the Republicans had no intention of ever working with him on anything, ever. Obamacare, a very deep compromise, a right-wing healthcare plan written by the heritage foundation that had already passed in Massachusetts under Mitt Romney's governorship, got 0 Republican votes in the Senate and 1 vote in the House. My final point is that your views on Bernie's "accomplishments" and "ability to get stuff done" are not borne out by a comprehensive evaluation of the available evidence. Now, this doesn't mean you're completely wrong, Bernie was by no means a prolific legislator. But his accomplishments during the last 30 years, often under the backdrop of corrupt and/or divided governments, is not that bad, and some would argue pretty good especially considering he operated as an independent who did not cow-tow to either party. Many will say nothing in his campaign agenda ever got through Congress. But that's the point, nothing that progressive got through Congress in the last 30 years, that's the whole reason Bernie is even running for president in the first place.
Honestly, I think it was a bit of a screw-up by AOC in that interview, but she has said in interviews past more broadly that we should campaign on the boldest policies and only compromise during the actual legislative process and not "pre-compromise" by running on lukewarm policies. And yes, in all fairness I am not in Bernie's inner circle so I can't be 100% certain. But, if you just look at his voting record and his political decision-making, you get an idea of how he works. This guy isn't a complete ideologue the way many people perceive him to be. He voted for Obamacare, he endorsed and vigorously campaigned for Hillary Clinton after compromising his policies on the party platform, he compromised with McCain to get the VA reform passed. This is not a guy that is living outside of reality. If he feels like he got everything he could get after a negotiation, then he will take it. Of course, as president, he will have far more leverage and he will use it. So, if there is a policy that will pass and provides a significant material benefit to a lot of people, Bernie will take that opportunity. I concede though that if a basic public option is all we are left with at the end of a battle for healthcare reform, then I will be a bit disappointed, but it does move the ball forward. However, there are a variety of other "compromise" positions that the Dems could make happen, just to list a few in order of success: 1. Full-on Single Payer 2. Generous Public Option (Warren's plan, almost no out of pocket expenses for people below a certain income) + Lower the age of Medicare eligibility (from 65 years to either 55 or 45 or 35 etc.) 3. Just Generous Public Option (Warren's plan) and no Medicare age adjustment 4. Basic Public Option
I get the argument, but the whole appeal around Bernie is that he's authentic and tells the truth when no one else will and that he won't be a wussy who compromises and fails like Obama and all the other regular Democrats did and all that. And now you're saying that he's flat out lying to everyone and will be a totally different President than he is in his campaign. Those two things are at odds with each other.
I agree .... the nondisclosure issue between he and Warren ..... put a fork in it. How many millions did he throw away to get hit by me too ??
Grab'em by the p@ssy didn't derail Trump (I sure thought at the time he was done). Maybe Bloomberg can repeat what Trump was able to do ? Kinda doubt it since the others have made Billionaires the enemy of the state.
From what I saw I don’t think Bloomberg hurt himself but I don’t think he helped himself either. His exchange with Sanders over whether there should be billionaires he was very sharp and as a debater I would give him that exchange as he not only made the case for his own wealth while Sanders looked resentful. In addition to his usual wild eyed look. His return that he earned his wealth will serve him well in a debate against Trump. The problem is he has to win the DEMOCRATIC nomination first and him bragging about his wealth, even earned, isn’t going to help
Did you see the part about non-disclosure agreements he had women sign who accused his company of sexual harassment? After Warren explained that they were clearly paid off, Bloomberg said they were consensual agreements. Drew audible booing from the audience. I think that will get played over and over again during the upcoming news cycle
