"Washed up" Chris Paul is the best clutch player in the NBA and will be in All-Star Game this year

If anyone is interested in a CP3 vs Westbrook discussion based on this season so far...

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=28435151

The very end of this podcast released today asks the question who has been better this season? Jump to the 51:30 mark

Westbrook fans won’t like it.

Who has been better? Consensus....Paul
Who should be an all star? “Well if you go off of the old style of traditional box score numbers I’m guessing you would pick Westbrook, but if you look at impact and winning stats it’s Paul hands down”

One of the guys....” Not even cherry picking. Every single metric Paul is better. This isn’t even close. Paul”

Royce Young.... “ in the past you could stomach his terrible inefficiency because there were other things he did so well, those things are fewer and far between now...” “Paul is 4 years older, but doesn’t feel like the one who is actually declining...” “it’s jarring how much better of an offensive team Houston is when Westbrook is off the floor...” “I think there could be times in the playoffs where Mike D might have to consider benching Westbrook if teams decide to double Harden”

But I urge everyone to actually listen to the discussion they have before responding. All quotes are paraphrasing off memory. Not exact word for word accounts.

 

When people say Paul is aging it baffles me, if there’s one player in history that relies more on playmaking/smarts than athleticism it’s Paul. Everybody knew he would age well (in terms of game on the court). The more you rely on athleticism the worse your game ages.

 

This is what I’m saying. I’m open to the possibility of Westbrook being better for us, but show me some actual evidence. Frankly...there is none yet.

 

Fair enough.

The short answer is yes. I don't think winning championships matters that much when we discuss individual greatness. Winning championships shows what kind of teams you played on (plus what kind of opponents you played against), not what kind of player you were. Championships are often tilted by a few plays by role players. And I haven't even mentioned injuries. Was CP3's injury Harden's fault that led to our losing the Warriors series? It is totally unfair to judge a star player by whether they won or lost because there are so many factors not controlled by the stars.

We will agree to disagree. No, I don't trust Westbrook to "take over" when the game is on the line. You are talking about one game three years ago. There were plenty of playoffs games Westbrook lost because of his stubborn inefficient style. You can't just pick and choose some games. You have to look at the whole picture. Look at Westbrook's playoffs performances over the years. He's inefficient not just in the regular season. He's even more inefficient in the playoffs. It's the same with Kobe fans who only remember his heroic last second winners. But he missed a ton of those heroic shots that nobody remembers simply because missed difficult last second shots are by nature not memorable.

When you say you don't care about efficiency, you sound like people who say they don't care about stats. (That's exact what Russ said, BTW.) It's usually when statistical evidence does not fit what they claim. As the saying goes: "I know I am right. Facts don't matter." These same people love stats when the numbers agree with their opinions.

 

CP3s injury was CP3s injury, it's not anyone's fault but he also shouldn't get excused for being injured. I don't think it is a coincidence that Lebron constantly plays on championship teams and other guys have not. That's because of the decisions Lebron makes and that's because of his leadership which is never questioned and which is something that does have an effect on the teams he plays for.

Westbrook historically rates high when it comes to playoff stats like PER or Box +/-, it is not right to act like he's some playoff choker because of holding him to a higher standard and that's what people do. There is always plenty of games with playoff failures for every superstar player, no one bats even close to 100% and we can use these same arguments to say Harden is a playoff choker and many people do...yet no one here would agree because of their bias.

You are always a playoff choker until you are not. Just look at Dirk's career for that. Kobe missed heroic shots but he made heroic shots, the makes often are far more memorable than the misses.

In the end, when all you do is cite numbers it makes it sound like you are playing the game on paper. That's why people say this and balk at this because some people make outstanding claims with these numbers that anyone with eyes know isn't true.

When Morey said "Harden is better offensively than Jordan..." No one cares what numbers he brings out to support that cause because they know if your team is down would you rather have Jordan or Harden?

That's what you all are missing, the mental and human part of the game and that's being completely thrown aside. Yes, there is a human part of the game where aggression is favored over passivity, where courage is favored, where risk taking is favored, and this should not be completely ignored just because of equations.

 

You see, when he mentions that double team thing I know he likely hasn't actually watched this team play and he's just going by "Well, they double because Russ doesn't shoot well...", Rockets STILL get open shots out of Harden double teams with Russ on the floor, they still get good shots out of it.

The whole idea of teams doubling players because no one else can shoot on the floor is silly because teams still doubled Curry...just think about that. Curry was still doubled with Klay and Durant on the floor, the point of these double teams is to get the ball out of Harden's hands.

Also, comparing the Rockets on the floor with Just Harden and Westbrook does not mean that Westbrook is bad. It means that Harden runs the offense better than Westbrook.

We also I guess going to ignore that Westbrook is part of all of our best lineups when going by Net Rating? I guess we just gonna ignore that huh?

 

Whatever you say man. It’s obvious there is zero amount of evidence to change your mind on the whole thing. Because there are mountains of it. Or you are just willfully ignoring it to stick to your guns. Either way, no need to go any further.

 

Yeah, so you preached and preached about Net Rating but I guess it means nothing now.

 

Do you realize how insane your logic is?

This whole time you have been trying to tell me how all my stats don’t mean anything when it comes to Westbrook.

Then you start to reference some of the same numbers to argue in favor of Westbrook?

If you are going to say Westbrook has a historically good playoff PER. Then you have to acknowledge that it’s been on a serious downward trend and the last 3 years have been WELL below his prime and last year in particular was god awful. You can’t just rely on prime year stats propping up the downside. And you would have to acknowledge how bad it is this season.

If you are going to use the fact that Westbrook is a part of our best 5 man lineup and NO he isn’t a part of ALL of our best 5 man lineups in terms of net rating then you have to acknowledge that Westbrook’s net rating in ALL of his minutes in TOTAL is one of the worst on the team. We don’t just judge a player by his best minutes. We judge him on all of his minutes. That 5 man lineup can’t play the whole game.

Same goes for box plus minus which you referenced.

It can’t be one or the other. It has to be both. You can’t just pick and choose.

Then again that’s what I have been telling you since the beginning. In the past ALL the numbers said he was great. And now they don’t.

 

Why would this make my logic insane? I'm the one that says stats do not tell the full story and that context matters and team results matter.

I bring up those stats to see what YOU would say since you've taken such a hardline position regarding them. I didn't say your stats are worthless, I said in the shadow of team success I don't care about it. If the team is playing well I really don't care about who is the most efficient player and who isn't and who

Last 3 years? 2017 his playoff per was a career high, more like the last two years it's been at a dip, alongside PG13s too...also, CP3s playoff per and BPM have been on a steady decline as well.

Yeah, I mean most of these lineups feature Westbrook, it's not like just one lineup features Westbrook.

Yeah, Russ has one of the worst Net Ratings on the team...along with PJ Tucker... I guess Tucker is also hurting the team with his minutes and play?

 

What's the point of this reply? it means nothing. its irrelevant to the point.

 

I never said he hated Cp3 I said he shipped out Cp3 for WB. Who cares what he set out to do before? Who cares if he was upset? All of these details are irrelevant like I said if your boss fires you who cares if he was upset or didnt intend to fire you at the start or didnt have an issue with you? He still fired you.

The important thing is he shipped out Cp3 for WB. Is that really so hard to accept? You yourself confirmed it he shipped out Cp3 for WB. So if your franchise player himself shipped out Cp3 for WB I dont wanna here anybody talking about false narratives or there is no beef or w/e other stuff you revisionists keep insisting on.

Bottomline is Harden wanted WB even at the expense of Cp3. So everybody hating on the WB trade first need to explain why its a good idea to ignore demands from your franchise player.

 

Nvm...im not getting involved.

 

They are both fatally flawed and ultimately overrated. Paul for all of his glorious point guard skills consistently buckled under playoff pressure and Westbrook for all of his force of nature athleticism is a terrible decision maker. For the Rockets to win a championship, Harden would have had to carry Paul and will have to carry Westbrook as well. Could Harden do it? Perhaps, but he has his own demons to overcome.

 

Objectively WB has been worse, but CP3 went to a situation that is better suited towards his game. WB's particular strengths aren't easy to integrate into a Harden led team and he's arguably harder to integrate into a random team than CP3. This move/gamble is about the playoffs and extending the Harden window with a younger player.

I think WB would look a lot better if the bench players were hitting a few more catch and shots. If he was averaging +10 assists perception would be more favorable.

 

Thank goodness Paul was able to teach Harden to be a winner.

Chris Paul has been stuck on mediocre teams for his entire career which is why he was not able to advance in the playoffs (except for the Clippers and Rockets).

He is great, and Westbrook is not good.

We should trade Harden for Paul.

He makes a lot of money and gets hurt a lot, but this will no longer be a problem because he is getting better and Westbrook and Harden are getting worse. His game is age proof.

It sure seemed like basketball related things like scoring and dribbling were extra difficult for him during the playoffs last year. He has always been really good at dribbling which is why it was surprising that dribbling past other people seemed to be a major undertaking.

Harden just can't play with great players like Paul and Dwight Howard.

 

Playing a playoff caliber team that was locked in and needed a win and Cp3 couldn't do nothing in the 4th. Looked just like the Warriors series last year. .Simmons wouldn't let him get by and no separation = no good looks for teammates down stretch. You can make great decisions all you want but facts are against elite competition that's locked in cp3 can't gain separation anymore.

 

lol more dumb ish, which is why this thread remains alive

 

Lmao

 

Ok so now that it seems you recognize that these numbers mean something....

CP3s numbers are declining.....but still better than Westbrook....

And hold the phone. Wait. It couldn’t be...

You mean to tell me the numbers might suggest that one of the weaker players on our team currently is the near 35 year old small ball big man who has ZERO offensive game outside of catching and shooting corner 3s and whose defense is in decline? That maybe that might be a position in need of an upgrade?

Cooky talk! Usually those types of guys are balling out of control and MVP candidates!