No love for Hall of Famer Nellie Fox? Or even Joe Morgan? Seriously, though: I get that the WS ring is a massive trump card. But Biggio was arguably the best 2B in the game for a few years. It was Bidge and Alomar, and then everybody else. After Biggio retired, somebody did a stat-by-stat comparison of Biggio against all HoF 2B, and Biggio more than belonged. He's no Eddie Collins, but he wasn't in the back of the pack, either. It takes more than longevity to get 3000 hits. Biggio was a GREAT hitter, and a GREAT fielder. And, as others have pointed out, a GREAT baserunner. Altuve's got hardware over Biggio, for sure. But for now, that's *all* he's got over Biggio. In a few years, we all hope that will be a different story. Here's hoping there'll be no argument!
Its not just "all" he's got... anymore than saying the only thing Biggio has over Altuve is longevity. Comparing their true prime years, Altuve's years are vastly superior to Biggio's, both in terms of traditional stats and advanced metrics. Altuve also looks to have a longer prime than Biggio... who of course did spend some younger years at catcher, with an unknown impact on whether or not it stifled his hitting progression. Of course its not "done"... if Altuve's career ended today, he'd be up there, but would be more at the Berkman/Oswalt level than Bagwell/Biggio... simply due to longevity. But at this rate, or even with just 2-3 more healthy years (when in reality he should have 5), he can easily approach greatest Astro of all time status. Alright, now onto the "Yordan Alvarez is the greatest DH in Astros history" thread.
Biggio v. Altuve, top 5 WAR seasons 9.3 - 8.3 6.4 - 7.7 6.2 - 6.0 5.2 - 5.2 4.9 - 4.5 Biggio really regressed after blowing out his knee and/or once he hit 35, so hopefully Altuve puts up some more great years and makes this question moot.
Based on what? Altuve hits for a much better average, but thats it. Altuve has been great for 6 years, and posted 35 WAR over that stretch. Biggio posted 37 WAR over his best 6 year stretch (94-99 while losing 1/3 of a season to the strike) Biggio had more runs (a lot more runs) more RBI, more steals and basically an equal OPS over that stretch. Over their first 8 full seasons, they have been almost the exact same player value wise. And Biggio's 9-11 seasons were 97-99, when he was at his best. Altuve will have the edge due to the chip, but let's not act like Altuve is a significantly better player. People are really underselling Biggio here,
Just noticed Pujols is a dozen doubles away from catching Biggio for the most doubles all time by a right handed hitter.
You're probably right that the hardware isn't all Altuve has over Biggio to date, but vastly superior? I doubt that highly.
I guess I should have clarified their respective careers/ages at this point, Altuve's is superior... since the start of Biggio's prime years (1994) is about the same age that Altuve is now. Unless you feel that Altuve's body will break down sooner... (or, ahem... you have the suspicion that a lot of players in the 90's were having better years later... for some strange reason...)... Altuve would have to fall off the face of the earth to not have a longer/more productive prime campaign.
Yeah, hard to separate that I don't feel Altuve is declining any time soon, given his relative age and some improvements in hitting to all fields with power (not just running out infield singles, like he did early in his career). Hard to dis-remember Biggio's sub-par performances on the big stage during his prime/HOF years. I agree, probably underselling Biggio's career... but the longevity/sticking around to reach an arbitrary 3000 hit total is something Altuve hopefully won't be having to do.
Even their careers to this point doesn't significantly favor Altuve. Through their first 8 seasons (38 Career WAR for Altuve, 35 for Biggio) they would be basically dead even if not for the strike. Biggio actually was great in 93 as well, I just picked his best 6. Altuve did start hitting at a star level a little earlier, but again the overall value to this point isn't much different, and Biggio still had 3 more awesome years on the book. And I've stated that I fully expect Atuve will be good a few more years and will pass Biggio once postseason success is accounted for, even if he slows down and falls short on regular season numbers. But the question was has he already, not will he. Even if I remove all of Biggios mediocre compiling years from 02-07, he's still significantly ahead of Altuve as far as regular season numbers go.
Agreed. I just can't see Altuve not being on a first ballot HOF track to this point... Biggio was playing at a HOF level (especially in 98-99), but I never expected him to be first ballot (which he ultimately wasn't). Whether or not that was because of some things out of his control (steroid association, playing in an era where a lot of guys were racking up big numbers, post-season failures, etc.), or not remains to be debated.
First 9 year comparison on stolen bases and caught stealing. Altuve is one year younger and has the remainder or this season. Altuve 253 SB and 73 CS Biggio 221 SB 72 CS. Now this regime believes in taken the risk in going for the extra base way more than the Biggio era. How much of it is Altuve making a terrible decision, hard to quantify. But Biggio was one of the all time smartest base runners I've ever seen next to Bagwell. But Altuve isn't "ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE", that is an over statement.
I'll take a World Series ring over five trips to the playoffs that all were one and done, largely because neither him or Bagwell contributed anything in the playoffs. That being said, I agree that it's a pointless debate and it's way too early to be discussing it...I fully expect the same from Altuve being good the next few years so indeed I'm projecting a little bit with my beliefs that he is better. Crazy things happen though so who knows.
It's part of the grade, but the staffs Biggio and Bagwell faced in their primes in the playoffs were ridiculous. The Braves several times and a top of his game Kevin Brown.
Healthy Bagwell played 6 postseason series: 2 great, 1 okay, and 3 terrible. Even in '05 with 1 arm, he had a couple of huge hits.
