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The future of the EU and the UK, post-Brexit

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by MojoMan, Dec 4, 2016.

  1. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Perhaps a voice of reason ...

     
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  2. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Member

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    The speech Theresa May must make immediately to rescue the country from this crisis
    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...on-the-speech-theresa-may-must-make-1-5972435
     
  3. Aleron

    Aleron Member

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    No, in the US a similar tactic the president can use is called the pocket veto.
     
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  4. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    Rather than the Tories formally embracing a preferred outcome of Brexit with no deal (it is still too soon), they need to push the EU again to relax the backstop provisions, or the EU risks the UK leaving with no deal, which is bad for the people of the EU.

    THIS is the right path, the smart path, and the path that they need to pursue:

    BREXIT ULTIMATUM: PM to demand EU scraps backstop or face no-deal - minister hints

    THERESA May has sided with top Tory Brexiteers against the EU’s continual demands for a backstop and is plotting a return to Brussels with calls for them to drop the hated clause in the Withdrawal Agreement, the Health Secretary has hinted.

    Matt Hancock said ditching the backstop through an amendment tabled by the chair of the Conservative Party’s 1922 Committee Sir Graham Brady is the only way the EU will be able to get a deal that works for the bloc too. Mr Hancock revealed Theresa May’s plan to the BBC, saying: “I think we have got to listen very carefully to people who are willing to vote for the deal subject to some amendments."

    He added the government will this week “assess what will have a majority in the Commons and take it to the EU and say 'that's the way to have a strong, positive relationship’”.​

    Everyone needs to keep in mind that it is typical for these deals to come down to the very last minute. While no deal still looks like the most likely option at this stage - indeed it is the default option - a better alternative would be to fix the deal with the EU by either removing the backstop or just including a hard date when it legally expires.

    This can still be done and the EU can still change their mind on this point, even though they have insisted up until this point that they will not do so. In fact, these people constantly say a great many things that later turn out to be otherwise.

    The rational and responsible move that needs to be made here is to include a hard date for the expiration of the backstop. It can still be done and hopefully Theresa May will pursue it on behalf of the UK.
     
  5. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    That is a good analogy. And it would be a good solution to use in this particular situation.
     
  6. Major

    Major Member

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    This is physically not possible. There is a reason both sides created the backstop and it can't go away until that reason is eliminated. Putting a random date on it doesn't solve the problem of why the backstop exists or how to replace it.

    No one wants a hard border. No one wants different rules for NI and the rest of the UK. How do those two conflicting things get resolved? It's one of the fundamental problems with Brexit that everyone tries to gloss over. The standard answer is a technological solution which comes with no details and doesn't actually exist right now. Until that does, the backstop pretty much has to exist.
     
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  7. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

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    They're not removing the backstop in lieu of an agreed permanent solution. Ireland will veto any revised agreement that doesn't preserve open borders with Northern Ireland.

    So if she's going to present that as an option, then the UK is headed for no deal. I know May wants to be the reincarnation of Margaret Thatcher but she's doing a rather terrible job with all of this.
     
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  8. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

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    To add to this, we have real examples of this problem. Switzerland has this problem with its neighbors. Norway has this problem with Sweden. Both are in the Single Market for Goods but not the customs union. You need both pieces to create truly frictionless trade.

    Even if the UK adopts the customs union, that solves the tariff and quota problem but it does not address the fact that the EU would still have to check goods entering Ireland to ensure that they meet European regulatory standards. The Customs Union addresses traditional trade barriers and tariffs while the Single Market address the regulatory standards for goods entering Europe. If you don't have both pieces, you need customs checks, period.

    So fixing the border problem is not an immigration question (the UK and Ireland already have a separate open travel area) but its a trade issue. Until both the trade rule and regulatory pieces are addressed, Northern Ireland and Ireland will have a hard border. There is no technology in the world that can validate if goods entering Ireland meet minute details like whether they are packaged or labeled correctly. Regulations are so in depth that manual checks are the only way to create any true form of enforcement.
     
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  9. malakas

    malakas Member

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    wow finally she realised that her deal is dead.
    It took a 10 hours long cabinet conference but she finally came up with something that is politically and strategically smart.
    Take out both the Brexemists and the Remainers and deliver a soft Brexit.
     
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  10. malakas

    malakas Member

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    No. The president has the right to veto but the PM doesn't. She is supposed to execute the will of the parliament not dictate it and bully it. Proroging the parliament is an act of treason and dictatorship. The president vetoing is within his power given by the constitution.
     
  11. Realjad

    Realjad Member

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    Brexit is never going to happen and there will be a second referendum as it was planned all along- bank on it.
     
  12. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    She has agreed to ask for another extension past April 12, 2019. Of course for that to be agreed to, the UK will have to commit to participating in the May 23-26 EU Parliamentary elections, which it does not seem likely at all that Parliament will vote to do.

    This looks to me like Theresa May is running out the clock. Of course she should also give the EU one last chance to stand down on the backstop deadline resistance. If not that, then they are still on course for the default option, which is Brexit with no deal on April 12, 2019.

    10 days to go. Tick tock.
     
  13. malakas

    malakas Member

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    It always looks to you that there will be a no deal Brexit. May could come out and say revoke and you would say it means no deal.


    A new political declaration as you have been told many times before is an acceptable reason for an extension.
    Tomorrow the parliament was going anyway to force May to ask for an extension. Letwin took two more days on his bill and he can take more and more in infinity if he wants.

    However the new political declaration will have to be passed and signed and be legally binding by both parties because the new Tory leader is very possible to try to take it back. Both the EU and Labour are going to make sure that the conservatives can't backtrack.
    It's not like this is a conspiracy, the Tories outright say it "Let's vote for it now and then we will change it later". :D
    They think the EU is blind deaf and illiterate to not be able to read it in the news.
     
  14. malakas

    malakas Member

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    Of course expecting May and Corbyn to agree between themselves is like wishing peace in the Middle East.
    They will decide on options and it will come down to parliament again.
    There is a clear majority for a softer Brexit if the whole cabinet isn't whipped to abstain this time.

    At least May decided that since the Tories are going to break up internally , let's bring down with them Labour too.
    Because the remainers of Labour do not want a soft Brexit and Corbyn will have to make his position clear if he wants a 2nd referenderum or not.

    Pretty much : If I die anyway I will kill my enemy too.
     
  15. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Drones paid for by Zuckerberg and Bezos.

    They Irish citizens aren't they?
     
  16. malakas

    malakas Member

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    Why? A hard border and breaking the Good Friday Agreement is a one way road to reunification of Ireland. Sinn Feinn is already preparing their knives.
     
  17. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    They are not going to have to force Theresa May to ask for another extension. She already said she would do it. What is the fascination that leftists have with forcing people to do things? Seriously, WTF?

    Of course for there to be an extension beyond May 22, 2019, the UK will have to participate in the May 23-26, 2019 EU Parliamentary elections - as you have been told many times and as surely you must know very well. So whatever changes to the political declaration that the UK Parliament passes, they need to include a recognition of and a commitment to that in it, or it is just another unicorn hunting exercise.

    Barring that, the default option is still Brexit with no deal on April 12, 2019. There really is not any time left for more of these people's virtue signalling and political posturing, but it sure looks likely that this latest amendment proposal is just going to be more of that. Maybe they will change it and make it substantial and effective, but so far what we are hearing it does not sound like it meets that description.

    Watch to see if they embrace participating in the May 23-26, 2019 EU Parliamentary elections. This is looking to be the litmus test of whether they are going to stay in or get out.
     
  18. malakas

    malakas Member

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    What?
    Leftists are forcing people to do things?:rolleyes:
    Do you understand that the Prime Minister is not a random person off the street?
    She has a responsibillity and a duty and she has been already found in contempt of Parliament for the first time in history.
    So please spare me the bullcrap. Of course they can and WILL force her to execute the will of the Parliament if she refuses to do it herself.

    It shouldnt have come to this but when there is a dictator you have to take extreme measures.
    May has been acting like a dictator all along and today is the first time in her office that she did or at least said the reasonable thing expected by a prime minister of a democratic country.

    They don't want to extend beyond 22 May anyway they want to get the altered political declaration and postpone Brexit from April to May.
    So no, no deal is not the default. Not even the ERG believes it anymore.
     
  19. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    That's a thing of the past! We talking about now!

    /Circular logic begets circular lies
     
  20. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    EU Commission President (The Executive Branch) Jean Claude Junker has issued a formal statement to the EU Parliament. Here are a few key paragraphs. The rest is at the link below:

    Statement by President Juncker on the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union at the European Parliament's plenary session

    In light of Prime Minister May's statement last night, I believe we now have a few more days. If the United Kingdom is in a position to approve the Withdrawal Agreement with a sustainable majority by 12 April, the European Union should be prepared to accept a delay until 22 May.

    But 12 April is the ultimate deadline for the approval of the Withdrawal Agreement by the House of Commons. If it has not done so by then, no further short extension will be possible. After 12 April, we risk jeopardising the European Parliament elections, and so threaten the functioning of the European Union.

    Yet I believe that a “no deal” at midnight on the 12 April is now a very likely scenario. It is not the outcome I want. But it is an outcome for which I have made sure the European Union is ready.​

    April 12 is none days from now and several of those next week will be spent on the Emergency EU Summit around April 10 (next Wednesday). Most of the proposals and activity that the UK Parliament has been involved with over the last few days has no prospect of gaining a further extension. It appears to be a lot of political posturing without practical purpose.
     

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