NBA GameTime crew reacts to James Harden has 50-point triple-double, Rockets beat Kings 119-108

THIS

 

Correct.

Defense or "2 way player" is used as an all purpose variable to lower players to the level the speaker deems appropriate, regardless of the reality of the players defensive impact.

 

This group is easily the weakest sports commentary team of all time. The poor chemistry, forced jokes, the bad excuse for analysis and the undeserved mutual praise is bad enough but they don’t even have an ounce of charisma between the three of them. If they were wrong but entertaining it would be one this but they are wrong and boring - which is unforgivable.

 

Eh...no.

Hakeem was always known as the elite defender. His defensive numbers (blocks, steals, defensive rebound numbers) were actually better in prior seasons.

The year he won the MVP, he won it because his team won the Midwest division, had the second best record in the league, and he was by far the best player on the team. The Sonics had the best record in the league but that was a more balanced team offensively. Both Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp were averaging close to 10 points per game lower than what Hakeem averaged (about 27 ppg). And Hakeem was literally carrying that team on offense by either scoring himself in the post, or creating open looks for his teammates. That team had no traditional PG play.

Even if Hakeem was not as good defensively, he would have still won the MVP just by the Rockets record and his numbers on offense.

If defense was really a factor, then Hakeem would have won the MVP in 92-93 as well. That year Suns had better record than the Rockets and Barkley won the MVP. Guess which player was still an elite defense while the other hardly played any defense?

 

This is a great response. Everyone saying giannis is practically double counting defense.

 

It's pitiful to hear someone compliment the arguments of two men who base everything they say on emotion. Logic is at an all time low.

 

He was DPOY in 92-93 and 93-94. Those were also the years in which he was top 2 in MVP voting. He never finished top 3 outside those two seasons.

I agree he had a great defensive reputation even before. But in his two best MVP caliber seasons, his was specifically recognized as the best defensive player in the game. That isn't to say that defense is the only reason he was an MVP candidate, but it for sure means that his defensive ability was a major factor in his candidacy.

The Rockets record was owned in large part to his defense. 2nd best defensive team in the league in 93/94, and Hakeem was its defensive anchor.

OK, but I didn't say defense was the only factor. The Suns had the best record in the league, and Barkley was clearly its best player and putting up outstanding numbers (reminiscent of what Giannis is doing this year, in fact). That goes a long way in MVP consideration as well.

I guess what you're saying is that the MVP, historically, was determinable primarily be two things: winning and offensive statistics. Defense only matters insofar as it is reflected in team success (as with Hakeem in 93/94, or going way back to the years Bill Russell won it). I suppose that could be true, but then we should also be willing to credit Giannis's role in his team's wins, given that he's his team's best overall defensive player and his team is now the best defensive team in the league.

 

By "close race", I meant it is close enough to where the difference in defensive impact can potentially shift who one votes for.

Not that it's neck and neck if you just ignore defense.

 

Zero analysis. Just simple opinions. They are probably on par with Jay williams sorry “analysis”.

 

Thank you!! So tired of these lazy ass analyst especially former players making this comment... pathetic.

 

I guess it comes down to our mental model for how wins are produced on a team.

You are saying its a function of player performance + coaching performance. So to the degree that a coach is personally responsible for a jump in wins, that would take away credit from his players. Or, conversely, if a coach is really bad and the team is still somehow successful, the players should get extra credit.

I am saying that win are a function of player performance, but player performance is in turn determined by coaching performance. So while a coach may be responsible for a jump in wins, its only indirect, and that credit flows down to his players in the final analysis of MVP as they are actually directly responsible for implementing his system.

 

Interesting. After reading all these posts and watching professional sports for all these years it’s apparent to me that the award means absolutely nothing but the opinions of the voters. As was mentioned in this post the subjective views of the voters is determinant on who gets the award based on the available information which they may or may not use to factor into their voting. Great. But what’s alarming the the biased media and haters in the public eye is that they are denying a special accomplishment unseen of since wilt. Unseen. Until the Greek freak puts up unprecedented numbers since wilt the competition isn’t even close.

 

I don't get this no defense argument, same people who voted for Nash, Dirk, Steph and Westbrook. None of them play defense. Why is harden set to a whole different standard? Because of a video that came out a couple years ago?

If LeBron did what harden is doing, he would hands down be consensus MVP...

 

The difference between Harden vs LeBron-Jordan is they'd already won multiple MVPs before the fatigue excuse.

With Harden, the media acted tired before he'd even won one.

 

What I saying is that defensive stats/impact in MVP discussion gets conveniently added or removed depending on who is arguing for whom.

When Barkley won the MVP, no one brought up his poor defense. Hakeem's numbers in 92-93 were better than Barkley's (both on offense and defense).

Also, Hakeem won the DPOTY when he won the MVP and when he didnt win the MVP. That's a separate award all by itself. I dont know why you are trying to tie the two together.

In this year's discussion, folks who are arguing for Giannis are bringing up his defense. They dont need to do that. They can simply say he is the best player on the team with the best record and that would suffice. Giannis can win the DPOTY and no one would argue against him.

But its disingenuous to bring up defense to separate the two candidates for MVP award like folks in media do, while propping up Giannis's defense and belittling Harden's defense when clearly Harden has played good defense this year.

This is how it gets presented....."But Giannis plays both sides of the floor"...or..."he plays the game the right way"....or...."I have never seen a player do the things he does..."...

Those are general and vague comments that have more to do with perception than what has actually happened or is happening on the court.

I dont care if Harden wins the MVP or not. I dont care for the award. But what I do care for is fair discussion and clearly the media does not have a fair discussion when it comes to Harden.

As I said, if the voters are same for this year as they were two years ago, then Harden should win the MVP this year for the exact reasons these same voters gave it to Westbrook that year.

That right there is a good bias test.

 

Exactly that’s why I contend the award is bullshit much like the academy awards for best picture. Means abosolutely nothing but the validation from voters who supposedly represent the NBA and the voting process.

 

You're obviously too young to remember Hakeem but his defensive zenith was earlier in his career, late 80's early 90's.

He did not come close to MVP those years.

He also was DPOY in 93 and he lost to defensive dilettante Barkley.

All using Hakeem as an example does is underscore the power of narrative (or in this case backlash) which has probably cost Harden some portion of 2 MVPs at this point, and if he doesn't win this year, 3.

 

At the end of the segment, that lady (I don't know her name) said "very sharp arguments by you both"

She must have listened to a different segment than I did

 

God I wanna punch that bald headed ******* so bad, not because he would vote for giannis but I dont know why.

 

Had the same thought. I had to replay that part multiple times and still dont know what argument was provided.