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Climate Change

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by ItsMyFault, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    I'll butt out again. @cml750 can speak for himself. I did not however take anything he said to entail an outright and wholesale rejection of science.
     
  2. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    Oh I'm sure he believes in Newton's three laws. I'm sure he implicitly trust the science and math of civil engineers every time he is on the 3rd floor of a building or the science and math behind brake design every time he slams his brakes while driving.

    He just denies it when a narrative in his head is in conflict with science.
     
  3. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Science is a methodology not an article from the 1970's that hasn't survived scrutiny. When you come to the conclusions he has and embraces experiments or theories that are not tested according the the scientific method, you are rejecting science itself because that is the definition of science.

    Science is a way of thinking and approaching the understanding of the natural world. What @cml750 just posted is a rejection of that. Your posts seem to come awfully close to that rejection as well. This is a big problem we see on the right where religious values trump science.
     
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  4. Nook

    Nook Member

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    This is just about it.

    Science is trusted when people get in their car or a plane...... or a high rise building..... or when they have surgery.
     
  5. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    Isn't that the far right's position on everything? Morality matters unless it is our candidates, deficit matters unless it is spending on things we like, individual liberty matters unless it is thing we want to control, the list goes on and on.
     
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  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    sounds like someone could use a good basic intro to science studies. Here's an older text that is still quite good. PM me your snail mail address and I will buy it for you as a gift. that's a serious offer.

     
  7. Jayzers_100

    Jayzers_100 Member

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    Listen, I don't care if you or anyone else believes in climate change. There are plenty of folks with stubborn views when it comes to this issue. But for the life of me (and please tell me if I'm missing something) I cannot fathom how anyone would be against developing cleaner energy that doesn't rely on fossil fuels. Oil and coal are non-renewable; they will run out of supply as demand increases! This is basic Economics 101; no one's opinion should matter whatsoever regarding climate change when it comes to developing green energy.

    If the US beats other nations in developing innovative green energy, it will be a dramatic boost to our economy and global leadership status. This is a 100% non-partisan issue that has been manipulated by right-wing opportunists with their hands in the pocket of Big Oil. Unless you're a shareholder of Exxon-Mobil, I cannot even begin to comprehend why people give a damn whether or not they're pumping gasoline into their vehicle (etc.)
     
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  8. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    You are funny. So now you attack the scientific method as a means to defend the anti-climaters drones.


    Because oil is the nectar of god and will defeat the evil socialists who want to make you take the devil's energy
     
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  9. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    the problem is you don't know anything about me or about my background. that must be frustrating for you.

    And no, I do not "attack the scientific method as a means to defend the anti-climaters drones."

    I don't see a pm yet with an address. It is a sincere offer. Won't cost you a dime. Or should I just file this exchange under "another day another data point"? :p
     
  10. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Your background is a basketball forum member and nothing more to me. If you don't reveal anything you are nothing in my book. It's up to you to share what you think makes you credible. But from your posts it appears you don't respect science and are ready to embrace radical and questionable assertions either as some kind of weird devil's advocacy, you're a troll, and/or you have fanatical elements growing inside you.

    No matter, I am not going to give you my personal email and reveal my identity so you can send me a book that you want me to invest precious time in reading without a good explanation as to why I'd find this a useful read. If you take notice, I don't have hours a day of spare time.
     
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    fair enough
     
  12. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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  13. jcf

    jcf Member

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    I can't find your earlier post about listing of actual climate specialists as opposed to the broader category of "scientist." I think you probably have seen this list of best climate change specialists from both viewpoints:

    https://thebestschools.org/features/top-climate-change-scientists/

    #3 on the list for those who don't necessarily believe in man-made client change or at least not to the extent the majority of the scientific community does is Curry who you cite above. Pretty interesting. She was essentially "drummed out of academia" for daring to question the prevailing view.

    I also just ordered this book on Amazon:



    If you just get on the Amazon page, there are some fascinating reviews that go into some depth on both sides. One person points out appropriately that the author is not a climate scientist so shouldn't be weighing in.

    Another provided a lengthy explanation that included:

    But Callendar also innovated what would later become a hallmark of global warming "scholarship," the selective use of data. His 290 ppm were based on a selected series of 19th century samples. The key word here is selected. Fone notes that 90,000 samples were available to Callendar, many with readings that are higher than those today, and Callendar simply excluded all readings that were not accord with his apriori thesis.

    But Callendar's work was not taken seriously for some time, in part because of the significant cooling the earth experienced between 1945 and 1975. It is now common for climate researchers to brush over this period and to claim that reports of a new ice age were but media exaggerations and few scientists believed such a thing. Fone makes short work of these claims by using primary sources to show that many of the same scientists who today support the AGW hypothesis seriously believed in a new ice age in the 1970s. Both Stephen H. Schneider and James Hansen held to the new ice age hypothesis, as did current presidental science advisor John Holdren. (In the 1970s, they blamed industrialization for planetary cooling, then switched to global warming when the climate, both political and ecological, shifted.)


     
  14. jcf

    jcf Member

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    I also find it fascinating that #2 on the list of best climate specialists is Stephen Schneider mentioned above who used to argue that we were headed to a new ice age...

    The discussion points out that there were and are political reasons for wanting a "consensus" on climate change, so recalling an earlier discussion between @Os Trigonum and @B-Bob , there is mention of $79 billion in governmental grants that were allegedly distributed to man-made climate change advocates so as to allow for what is described as the false 97% consensus argument.


    To be clear, I have no idea or expertise on climate change. I don't know how much of it is man-made versus the fluctuations that have occurred on this planet since inception. I am not arguing that it doesn't exist or isn't a problem.

    It is fascinating, however, that there appears to be an entire back story, replete with damning emails from "climate specialists" that were not meant to be disclosed publicly, regarding some of the motivations that may be behind all of this (acknowledging that saving humanity would be a hell of a motivation for a lot of scientists who believe this is a man-made problem and believe in the severity of the issue.)

    Finally, as has been said before, a consensus means very little. We don't have to go very far back in history to have an almost universal consensus that the Earth was flat. I am certain that people back then would have argued facts are facts, we don't need opinions. Turns out most of the "scientists" of that era were wrong. Something to keep in mind here when deciding whether we should take potentially devastingly draconian measures to combat something it appears we still don't know a whole lot about.
     
    #354 jcf, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  15. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    obviously climate change is chinese hoax. This must be at least the 100th time you posted these "evidence", do you not get tired of this?
     
  16. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    @jcf, in your most recent message that mentions me, you are going into a very narrow interpretation of a field where you've admitted having no expertise. I'm not insulting anyone. Not complaining. Just want to point that out.

    When you read some amazon review comments and hold that up against dozens of books you are not reading because they weren't on the "top list for those who do not believe in manmade climate change," I hope you can see that you are choosing a confined, narrow road that may not lead to a balanced or grounded view. (Yes, even if there were contrary posts typed by anonymous people in the amazon review space.)

    That "email" thing has been rigorously put into the light, and in my view largely debunked as some sort of scary cabal. It's the 0.05% phenomenon. If you take 0.05% of any community's emails, you can put together something scary... as long as you completely ignore and leave buried the remaining 99.95% of the correspondence. It's a very clever and (in my humble view) dishonest but increasingly prevalent technique of argumentation in our data-rich, understanding-poor world of the internet.

    I am hating myself for typing in another climate thread -- literally about to hit myself with a club -- but one final point. When you say Curry was driven out for her views, you are completely accepting her explanation as gospel without knowing what on earth happened. Without hearing from all her colleagues. Having been involved in many university personnel decisions, they are 99% of the time about behavior and performance and not about orthogonal points of view. (Academia is filled with cranky people with orthogonal views.) Her job presumably needed a certain level of teaching, certain level of collegial committee work, student advising, and presumably required a certain level of research excellence in the specialty where she was hired. But if I start trying to publish my theories of economics, from a physics department, it could really hurt my career. Right? I could say, "oh that's because the cabal of economists don't like my views!" But instead, it could really be because the department that hired me, a physics department, wants me to be publishing about, you know, physics. She also could have violated a legit HR issue for all we know. I doubt it, but I'm damned sure not going to take her woe-as-me song about it. All former academic position-holders have these persecution stories.

    I don't know Curry or anything about her. I am suspicious when people on the internet glom onto that "lone, sane voice" who knows better than everyone else. It always feels so sexy, I get that. There is something intoxicating to some people about knowing better than entire fields of smart people. It is not hard to find fairly convincing treatises on the Moon landings being totally faked. There are enticing reasons to listen to them, sexy reasons. One does have to simultaneously believe that 400,000 smart people were either part of the deception or completely duped. I think Occam's razor has something to say on that topic, and on the climate data.

    If you would like a more balanced climate-related reading list, I don't think that would be hard to find. If you want to find legit blogs that refute Curry on the regular, those are not hard to find. But the stuff gets technical very quickly, and that's part of why people don't trust it, I suppose. Good luck with all this, assuming you remain interested. And as I've said nearly one billion times, here's hoping the denialists, moving goalposts and all, are correct: let's hope there is a massive failure of the consensus. Let us hope all the glaring data in front of us is misleading. That would be a wonderful thing. An increasingly unlikely wonderful thing.
     
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  17. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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  18. jcf

    jcf Member

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    I take zero offense. I agree that I have zero idea or expertise in this issue. I found the stuff online interesting so put it out there because it seems to go to what Os and others were debating.

    I literally googled "is climate change man-made" and this came up pretty early. I am going to read it, but I appreciate the fact that it might be bs meant to sell books.

    Would happily take a rec from you for one or more books that a lay person could understand. (you have steered me correctly once before).

    Just found the stuff interesting about Thatcher and the coal miners strike and thought it might be interesting to others.

    Not trying to push an agenda because I do not know what is right. But given some of the solutions being proposed and the risks if the more depressing models are accurate, I want to know more about it.
     
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  19. jcf

    jcf Member

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    Also, please don't club yourself.....


    On Curry, I was simply restating what it said in the article.
     
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  20. Buck Turgidson

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    Well sure, @No Worries, but modern humans have been around for 30,000+ years, so the 6th century BC really wasn't that long ago, relatively.



    Am I doing this right?
     
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