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[Foreign Policy] The Death of Global Order Was Caused by Clinton, Bush, and Obama

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Dec 24, 2018.

  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    pretty sure folks here will find fault with this assessment:

    "If there is a consensus among these various commentators, however, it is that U.S. President Donald Trump poses a particular threat to the U.S.-led, rules-based order that has supposedly been in place since 1945. If only Hillary Clinton had become president, some believe, the United States would have remained the 'indispensable nation' guiding the world toward a more benign future, and the familiar elements of a rules-based order would be thriving (or at least intact).

    "There is no question that Trump places little value in democracy, human rights, the rule of law, or other classic liberal values, and he seems to have a particular disregard for America’s democratic partners and a soft spot for autocrats. But it is a mistake to see him as the sole—or even the most important—cause of the travails now convulsing the U.S.-led order. Indeed, the seeds of our present troubles were sown long before Trump entered the political arena, and are in good part due to foreign-policy decisions made by the administrations of former Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama."​

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/10/the-death-of-global-order-was-caused-by-clinton-bush-and-obama/

    The Death of Global Order Was Caused by Clinton, Bush, and Obama
    America’s post-Cold War presidents could have taken a road that didn’t end at Donald Trump.
    BY STEPHEN M. WALT | DECEMBER 10, 2018, 12:49 PM

    A recurring theme of foreign-policy commentary since 2016 has been the prior status and uncertain future of the so-called liberal order. Some writers question whether a liberal order ever existed or challenge its alleged virtues, while others are quick to defend its past achievements and bemoan its potential demise.

    If there is a consensus among these various commentators, however, it is that U.S. President Donald Trump poses a particular threat to the U.S.-led, rules-based order that has supposedly been in place since 1945. If only Hillary Clinton had become president, some believe, the United States would have remained the “indispensable nation” guiding the world toward a more benign future, and the familiar elements of a rules-based order would be thriving (or at least intact).

    There is no question that Trump places little value in democracy, human rights, the rule of law, or other classic liberal values, and he seems to have a particular disregard for America’s democratic partners and a soft spot for autocrats. But it is a mistake to see him as the sole—or even the most important—cause of the travails now convulsing the U.S.-led order. Indeed, the seeds of our present troubles were sown long before Trump entered the political arena, and are in good part due to foreign-policy decisions made by the administrations of former Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama.

    Think back a quarter century, to the beginning of the “unipolar moment.” Having triumphed over the Soviet Union, the United States could have given itself a high-five, taken a victory lap, and adopted a grand strategy better suited to a world without a superpower rival. Rejecting isolationism, Washington could nonetheless have gradually disengaged from those areas that no longer needed significant American protection and reduced its global military footprint, while remaining ready to act in a few key areas should it become absolutely necessary. These moves would have forced our wealthiest allies to take on greater responsibility for local problems while the United States addressed pressing domestic needs. Making the “American dream” more real here at home would also have shown other nations why the values of liberty, democracy, open markets, and the rule of law were worth emulating.

    This sensible alternative was barely discussed in official circles, however. Instead, both Democrats and Republicans quickly united behind an ambitious strategy of “liberal hegemony,” which sought to spread liberal values far and wide. Convinced that the winds of progress were at their back and enamored of an image of America as the world’s “indispensable nation,” they set about using American power to topple dictators, spread democracy, sanction so-called rogue states, and bring as many countries as possible into security institutions led by the United States. By 2016, in fact, America was formally committed to defending more foreign countries than at any time in the nation’s history.

    America’s leaders may have had the best of intentions, but the strategy they pursued was mostly a failure. Relations with Russia and China today are worse than at any time since the Cold War, and the two Asian giants are once again colluding against us. Hopes for a two-state solution between Israel and the Palestinians have been dashed, and the rest of the Middle East is as divided as it has ever been. North Korea, India, and Pakistan have all tested nuclear weapons and expanded their nuclear stockpiles, while Iran has gone from zero enrichment capacity in 1993 to being nearly a nuclear weapons state today. Democracy is in retreat worldwide, violent extremists are active in more places, the European Union is wobbling, and the uneven benefits of globalization have produced a powerful backlash against the liberal economic order that the United States had actively promoted.

    All of these trends were well underway long before Trump became president. But many of them would have been less likely or less pronounced had the United States chosen a different path.

    In Europe, the United States could have resisted the siren song of NATO expansion and stuck with the original “Partnership for Peace,” a set of security arrangements that included Russia. Over time, it could have gradually drawn down its military presence and turned European security back over to the Europeans. Russia’s leaders would not have felt as threatened, would not have fought Georgia or seized Crimea, and would have had little or no reason to interfere in the U.S. election in 2016. As the European Union took on a greater security role, states like Poland and Hungary might have been less inclined to flirt with authoritarianism under the safety blanket of U.S. security guarantees.

    A wiser United States would have let Iraq and Iran check each other instead of attempting “dual containment” in the Persian Gulf, eliminating the need to keep thousands of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War. Had Washington also made its support for Israel and the Palestinian Authority conditional on both sides making steady progress toward “two states for two peoples,” the two principal sources of Osama bin Laden’s murderous antipathy toward America would have been removed, making the 9/11 attacks much less likely. And with no 9/11, we almost surely would not have had invaded and occupied Iraq or Afghanistan, thereby saving several trillion dollars and thousands of U.S. and foreign lives. The Islamic State would never have emerged, and the refugee crisis and terrorist attacks that have fueled right-wing xenophobia in Europe would have been far less significant.

    A United States less distracted by wars in the Middle East could have moved more swiftly to counter China’s growing ambitions, and it would have had more resources available to accomplish this essential task. Instead of naively assuming that a rising China would eventually become democratic and willingly abide by existing international norms, the United States could also have made Beijing’s entry into the World Trade Organization contingent on it first abandoning its predatory trade practices and establishing more effective legal institutions at home, including protections for intellectual property.

    Moreover, greater attention to how the benefits of globalization were distributed would also have reduced inequality in the United States and tempered the polarization that is ripping the country apart today. And as Rosella Zielinski argues in a recent article in Foreign Affairs, financing foreign wars by borrowing money (instead of by raising taxes) lets the wealthiest Americans off easy and even allows them to earn interest lending to the federal government, exacerbating existing economic disparities. In this way, an overly ambitious grand strategy helped make economic inequality worse.


     
    #1 Os Trigonum, Dec 24, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  2. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Didnt read past first sentence, therefore did not find fault

    The "orange man bad" crowd is something like 60-70% of all Americans, actually when it comes to foreign policy its probably closer to 80%. Even feckless turdnugs like Rubio are appalled.

    Can you give it a rest? For real? Like just mosey the hell off and rewatch Jordan Peterson Christmas special or some ****.

    After all, your lonely leader is tweeting. He needs you. Leave us in peace brah.
     
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  3. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    @Os Trigonum are you able to provide a brief synopsis of your personal beliefs and understanding of the article you posted?
     
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  4. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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    are you mental?
     
  5. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    He has already admitted that he is trolling
     
  6. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Not sure what the point is. There are so many strange assumptions here, not the least the implication that Trump's mistakes somehow the ineviatable outcome of the mistakes of others, and so he is absolved of blame, I guess?

    Not entirely sure.
     
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  7. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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    Really dude what have you been smoking it's going into a new year let the trolling go please.
     
  8. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    I don't see how anyone can look at US foreign policy after 1991 and think it was a resounding success that is beyond criticism.

    But instead of having a discussion about a timely piece on international politics by a prominent scholar and former dean from the JFK School with a defensive neorealist perspective that makes an attempt to do so, the thread is reduced to ad hominem.

    It is not "Orange man bad" in this case as it is "The guns are always right," this idea that somehow anyone not subscribing to the extremely belligerent interpretation of American exceptionalism that has been normalized by neo-conservatives and Clinton deadenders deserves to be dismissed as a heretic.

    Walt has been a prominent critic of post-Cold War US foreign policy since the 90s and has predicted a lot of events that later came true. I'm much more interested about what he has to say about the global order than the media personalities and political spin doctors on television that pander to those in power and are touted as experts.
     
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  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    It would be a good new year's resolution for him
     
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  10. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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    There is a long list of them that can be added .
     
  11. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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    There is a long list of them that can be added .
     
  12. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    Let us focus more on those invading our country and less on us invading others’ countries.
     
  13. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    I stand for America first, last and always, I am opposed to any organization which tries to bring in foreign and alien ideals
     
  14. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Hindsight is always 20-20, Os. The cat didn't write anything someone with a thorough of history wouldn't already know. Since he mentioned trump, I don't know why he didn't tie his column up with a nice little bow by explaining how trump's incredible ignorance of history, his blatant corruption, and his spectacular incompetence is creating an unprecedented catastrophe for our country, our allies, and our friends. By attacking the good that has come out of the last several decades, while making the bad that came from the same period far worse by embracing the enemies of all we hold dear and holding them close, trump seems bent on destroying what has prevented another world war and created unprecedented prosperity since the end of World War II. Intentional or not, it reads as an attempt at creating excuses for the creature that currently has a grip on the Oval Office.
     
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  15. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    If you read about halfway through you’ll see it. One key line -“and Russia wouldn’t have NEEDED to meddle in the 2016 election”.

    The entire article is one big convoluted geopolitical statement about the US has screwed up with globalism and how we should pull back from the world and focus on trade... how convenient of a message right now.

    Who does this sentiment benefit, encourage, and discourage in the end?
     
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  16. WNBA

    WNBA Member

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    wars in middle east are bad.....we should have a war with china instead...

    seriously, these warmongers should shut up.
     
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  17. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Simply because the focus of his article is on the failure in foreign policies since the cold war.

    The reason why he doesn't explicitly talk more about the current admin dangers (in this article) is because he believe Trump is effectively continuing the old policies (although I think he fails to recognize that's not due to Trump but the "adults" [that was once] in the room and inertia).

    He does however, recognize some of Trump issues. Although it's the old policies (which he disagree with), it's worse because of the "completely chaotic and incompetent style" of Trump as he said. He recognize that Trump can't tell a straight story about Russia given his personal and business entanglement with them. He also see the enormous damage that Trump has caused to our international image and recognize that as an issue.

    If you want to read more on his stance, including a bit more on how he view Trump, you get a better feel of it in this podcast (transcript provided).
     
    Os Trigonum likes this.
  18. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    If you want to complain about mistakes made before Trump...

    How about Ronnie's stupidity of arming and training the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets. Oh, in case you didn't know, those Mujahideen took that knowledge with them when they became Al Qaeda and eventually ISIS
     
  19. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    It wasn't a mistake. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan during the Cold War was something we were never going to accept. If there was a mistake, it was waiting as long as we did to do something serious about it. Russia occupying that country gave them a prize thay had desired since the time of the Czars going back to the 1800's.

    It would have been a strategic disaster, giving them the ability to attack India, and out flanking Iran, enabling them to attack that country on their way to seizing the oil wealth they yearned for. The Gulf and surrounding oil producing states. It would have been a knife placed squarely against our necks. We would have ended up at war with the Soviet Union in an attempt to prevent that, weakening our defense of Western Europe.

    Does anyone here seriously study history? If there was a big mistake, it was turning our backs on the Afghans after the Soviets were forced out. Had we poured aid into the country instead, history would be much different today.
     
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  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    It was a mistake and you do not know your history here. Check out the wikipedia article; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War

    Here is a good quote from Brezhnev:

    Soviets were forced to enter due to the insurgent uprising and unstable gov't in Afghan which couldn't quell the Islamic extremists funded by Pakistan and the CIA (yes, that happened BEFORE the Soviet invasion). With the detente with the US over with the failure of the Salt treaty and the concern that rising Islamic extremism might compromise soviet Muslim Republics, they took control to stabilize the situation.

    By the way, India supported Soviet intervention.

    So you have been fed a very biased view of the history here. The US made a colossal mistake. Not only could the whole Afghan war been prevented, but Islamic extremism could have been held in check or at least significantly delayed.
     
    Os Trigonum likes this.

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