I will shut down the government. I will take that mantle

I'm fine with them being laid off, it's a small price to pay to force the government back into a situation where they are willing to cooperate with one another and not be so petty and ridiculous. The president is there to check the congress, and that's what he's going to do.....unless he pulls a 41 and costs himself any chance of reelection by giving in to Democrats whose sole goal in life is to prevent the president from getting any small win no matter what the cost.

The vast majority of the government still has a year worth of funding, so it would be a year before any real pain was felt, I see no reason whatsoever to give in to petty BS from Democrats in congress. Either they are willing to work to keep the government open, or they want to shut it down to prevent the president from getting a small win. Either way, I don't care.

 

That was a different situation. The Republicans in congress were forcing Obama to accept just a little bit of fiscal responsibility after Democrats were running 1+ trillion dollar deficits every single year. They also wanted to end Obamacare, but they were willing to keep that going once they got the spending cuts they were looking for.

If Democrats in congress are willing to give the wall funding in exchange for more fiscal irresponsibility (their big thing) then I'm sure something could be worked out.

 

...spending billions for a wall that even you say is a small thing...and that we know won't even stop immigration as most of it is overstayed visas...is being fiscally responsible to you?

 

It's comparatively a small thing. We have those same people who are arguing about 5 billion dollars asking for programs that will cost trillions every year....sorry that just doesn't work for me. If the wall is merely ineffective, then that means there's no reason to not do it. The ONLY reason they are against it is because it would give Trump a win. Literally no other reason.....unless they are also concerned that it would be effective and they are secretly pro illegal immigration but let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say that it's just that they are too petty to allow Trump to get a win.

 

I’m still confused as to why it is only the responsibility of Congress to keep the government running and not the President’s.

Trump made a campaign promise that he would build a wall and that Mexico would pay for it. Of course it was ridiculous to suggest that Mexico would pay for it, so now he wants Congress to give him funding. That is not the same campaign promise.

And just because you don’t find it to be a huge expense doesn’t mean that Congress has to give funding to something that it appears they don’t believe is necessary.

I also disagree with your assertion that the only valid reason they are not pushing it through is to prevent Trump from getting a win. Once again, you not thinking that 5 billion dollars is a huge expense does nothing to change the fact that some people do. I’m guessing most of the Senators that don’t want to give the funding are doing so because they believe that a wall is unnecessary and that their bases don’t support it.

 

It's the job of both.....but Trump ran on shutting down the government if they refused to pay for the wall and now he's doing it. The congress showed up knowing that refusing to fund the wall was a non starter so it makes it their fault that they won't do it.

Those same Senators who are refusing to allocate the money for the Wall routinely waste more than that is pork attached to other bills. In context, it's a small amount of money. Now if the president was demanding a bill that would cost the taxpayers trillions of dollars a year like single payer healthcare for example, that would be a valid reason for congress to stand their ground and refuse, but to do so over 5 billion dollars is nothing but petty.....and that's why it will hurt Democrats if this government shutdown lasts all that long.

Either way though, I personally want a VERY long term government shutdown to force the sides back towards the middle. The current environment is toxic and I don't think anything positive can come from it so shut it all down and refuse to allow anything to get done until things change and the sides come together.

 

Just because Trump ran on building a wall doesn’t mean that Congress has to give it to him if they don’t think it is necessary, even if he threatens to shut down the government.

And it is certainly not their fault if they don’t give in just because they knew the “consequences.” You said it yourself: Trump supposedly ran on shutting down the government if he didn’t get a wall... which means Trump is the one shutting down the government.

 

The point is that they can't pass ANYTHING that won't be signed off on, if they know for a fact that he'll veto anything that doesn't include the small amount for the wall, it means they are choosing to shut down the government. When someone gives you an ultimatum and you give them the finger, it means you are choosing the consequences over meeting their demands. If their demands are relatively small and you choose to go that route, you'll be seen as the dick and not the person that has told everyone about the ultimatum something like 9 months ago.

In the context of the budget, 5 billion for wall funding is not significant, if Democrats in congress feel like they aren't willing to give that up under any circumstances it means they are the ones picking the shutdown instead of compromise. Now the GOP base is perfectly fine with a shutdown, will the Dem base feel the same way? Trump Derangement Syndrome is pretty widespread so maybe they are, we'll see.

 

Funny you see it that way when there was Bi-Partisan support for a bill not funding the wall...

You sound like you believe Congress should be a rubber stamp for the President.

 

Right now the current bill has passed the house and has the votes to pass in the Senate, the ONLY reason it might not become law would be a filibuster by the Democrats. It's obstructionism specifically so that the government will have to shut down. There's really no other way to spin it....but that won't stop people from trying I suppose.

 

You keep trying to minimize the cost of the wall, as if that is the only reason that people don't want to build it. Some people believe that the "small amount" of 5 billion dollars could be put to better use than building a border wall... so they are against putting it in the bill.

Also by your logic, Trump could have given the same ultimatum 9 months ago about anything that cost 5 billion dollars, and it would be the fault of Congress if they didn't put it in the bill since they had forewarning that he would shut down the government, and because they waste a lot of money on other stuff. The only person choosing to shut down the government is the one threatening to do it if his demands aren't met. That is not coming to any sort of middle.

And speaking of his promise, I don't believe you have addressed the fact that the original border wall was supposed to be paid for by Mexico. Why is that not an important part of the promise that needs to be kept? It sounds to me like Trump made a promise that he couldn't keep, and is now trying to change the promise and shift the blame.

You keep talking about coming back toward the middle. I agree that needs to happen. But the Senate giving in to Trump's demands is not going towards the middle as only one side is moving. Moving towards the middle might be something like coming up with a plan to address illegal immigration together, not one side saying that a wall needs to be built and the other side giving in despite not agreeing with it. That puts the middle squarely over Trump, which is I'm sure what he wants.

 

I could accept this argument if the same people who are pretending 5 billion dollars is some massive expense weren't the same people that waste many times that amount in pork every year and some of the same people pushing to literally double the federal spending with a universal healthcare bill.

Spending on border security is something that everyone should and would agree on if not for a pathological condition related to who is currently the president. If you feel a wall is ineffective, that's fine, make funding for that contingent on funding something else that you think would be effective. Just saying there's no way I'll ever give you what you want no matter what it costs is a partisan response and those people need to be dragged kicking and screaming back to the middle. If shutting down the government until that happens is what it takes, then it's completely worth it.

 

Pretty much.

Trump literally said that he's willing to shut the government down for his wall. This is on him.

The only one spinning here is you. Democrats have been opposed to the wall for years now. They have no reason to vote for something they do not support. It's not their job to pass everything the standing president wants. It's their job to represent the people that voted for them...and most of America doesn't want a wall.

5 billion is a lot of money that could be used elsewhere, hell, it could be used on other, more effective, technologies to limit and control immigration.

While you think it's a good use of money, others do not. It has nothing to do with obstructionism, they just passed a criminal justice bill days ago.

It's not their fault that Trump promised a wall that Mexico would pay for to his base. That's his fault. Maybe future politicians will be cautious of promising silly things.

 

Trump could have had some of his stupid wall money had he taken the DACA deal back in March.

But on the genius level political advice of "adult in the room" John Kelly, he turned it down.

Now he's going to get no wall money and like it, with the Democrats in charge of congress.

Tremendous negotiating, Donald.

Huge.

 

Are you willing to forgo your salary while those folks are laid off? How someone can say “It’s a small price to pay...” regarding folks who may be need their job and salary is ridiculous.

 

People have different values on things.

Some people think the military budget should be cut and more should go into education. Some people think it is worth it to spend money to make sure that people are healthy and able to live and work.

Some people think 5 billion for a wall that won't even stop immigration is a waste of money. It's irrelevant that they would spend more elsewhere.

Fine, if you think that universal health care is a waste of money, but clearly others do not think so. These people vote to put senators in office to represent their views...and Trump, as of right now, doesn't have the support in the Senate to get what he wants.

 

It's called compromise, I get that's a foreign concept these days, but if the idea of compromising with the president in order to give him what he campaigned on is such a horrible idea then the government NEEDS to be shut down.

I don't have to, but if I was a federal worker who was affected, I'd get a different job. I am willing to have them find different jobs for the best interest of the country. Dragging Democrats back to the bargaining table is absolutely worth those people being forced to find other employment. Keeping things as dysfunctional as they are now is much worse for the country.

 

I can’t believe the Dems would rather shut down the government rather than agreeing to a common sense extension of the existing border wall.

Put Country before your own pride, dems.

 

So have them suggest taking 5 billion from the military budget to pay for the wall. My point is that it doesn't matter to them where the money comes from, congressional Democrats are simply unwilling to allow funding for the wall because they don't want to give the president a win. That kind of petty BS is bad and is worth shutting the government down over.

It's funny that you'd be fine with supporting a program that would cost 4 trillion dollars a year, but balk at 5 billion dollars.

 

I agree that the people who are unwilling to work on a solution need to come back to the middle, although I hope it doesn't take a government shut down to accomplish this. Unfortunately, the President seems to be leading the way as far as people that are unwilling to work with the other side on a solution.

I say this because without even being in office he came up with a solution, made a promise to enact it (without having the power to), and appears to be unwilling to bend or compromise. And according to you that is Congress' fault since they knew about it beforehand and waste money on other things.

So I agree that both sides need to work with one another on a solution, but that would involve Trump possibly giving up his wall, which he seems unwilling to do. And if he is unwilling to compromise, why should the Senate?

Also you still haven't addressed his promise of Mexico paying for the wall...