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Trump: I have asked Secretary of State to closely study the South Africa land and farm seizures....

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by RocketsLegend, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    well Trump is already asked why more Norwegians do not immigrate to the United States.
     
  2. biina

    biina Member

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    (Going by your logic, Trump's policies targeting people from certain countries are racist policies and your arguments in support of said policies are simply an excuse for you to support racist policies? Do you then not respect yourself? but I digress)

    A 'racist' policy would be a matter of opinion, as others could see it as righting decades of injustice. Such arguments are not easily dismissed - one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Ironically, said whites perpetuated an entire government premised on racism.

    The white populace have had sufficient time to ease the target off their backs and should have known that, given the demographics and political landscape, it was only a matter of time before things came to this,. They primarily have themselves (and their ancestors) to blame for this. If you are going to be burned at the stake, paraffin wax shouldnt be your choice for a body cream.
     
  3. glynch

    glynch Member

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    RocketsLegend, Trump has acknowledged the pain of you and your family members, but that is not enough. How has he really benefitted you-- aside from your joy at him going after immigrants and non-whites, and outraging liberals and educated conservatives
     
  4. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    What's interesting to me is that if the roles were reversed, the same Trumpers upset about this issue would be talking about American sovereignty and the rule of law. Let's not forget that their Republican hero, Ronald Reagan, vetoed sanctions on the apartheid government of South Africa in the 80's. Even more, a common conservative refrain against slavery reparations in America is that nobody alive was a direct victim or perpetrator of the slavery quite unlike the situation in South Africa. There are just layers and layers of hypocrisy here.
     
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  5. across110thstreet

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    a white South African once told me how really felt about black people
     
  6. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    That's a false equivalence, the Trump travel ban was not racist at all and any halfway intelligent person should be able to see that if they aren't blinded by Trump Derangement Syndrome.

    The land seizures on the other hand are straight up racist. It is a government deciding that too much land is owned by people with certain color of skin and then deciding to steal that land from them in order to give it to those with different color skin. There's absolutely no way that can be construed as anything but racism. It's essentially Alt-Right, Richard Spencer policy in action.

    Yeah, that sounds exactly like something racist people would say to justify their racism.


    .....as does this.
     
  7. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yeah and I bet you will never forget it.

    The South African level of hatred against black people is at a level I have never seen before.
     
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  8. Nook

    Nook Member

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    There are already people that have a claim, they are being given 10% of the value of the land and told to take it or be forced off. It is working through their court system.

    South Africa is an absolute disaster. You had a colonial power strip the native majority of their culture, family structure and imposed a system that wasn’t only one of absolute servitude but one that culturally was vastly different.

    There are serious long term consequences in destroying a groups culture, suppressing them, changing and limiting their education, killing their leaders and giving them no decision making responsibilities. That is what happened in South Africa.

    Then, over night the wealth and ruling class largely left and there was an enormous vacuum that needed to be filed by black South African leadership. The problem was that the natives were not in anyway prepared to rule effectively (as if anyone could with an uneducated population in poverty). All the best African leaders had been killed, aged or didn’t exist because of social conditions.

    The farms and land will be taken from the white property owners. The remaining whites that can, will leave. However things will not get better for the Africans because their government is corrupt, their culture destroyed, they lack an educated work force and finances.

    The current state of SA is a result of apartheid and the complete immoral behavior of the white ruling class. At this point it will be hundreds of years before SA bounces back.
     
  9. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    The racist is you, Russian Bot, as is Mr. trump. With all respect due.
     
  10. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Fun fact - South Africa is the only place in the world where you can still quaaludes.

    Every country in the world outlawed them, but as part of "Project Coast", the apartheid government produced and released all kinds of drugs in black areas to control and anesthetize the people. This created a demand for illicit quaalude that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theodysseyonline.com/south-africa-chemical-weapons.amp
     
    #50 Ottomaton, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  11. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    That brought back a memory. I went with a chick to Liberty Hall to see Bruce Springsteen and the band for $3 bucks in early March of 1974. Walking around during an intermission (Bruce played for 3 hours), I ran into a friend of mine from high school. He grinned, looking at me, and said, "Open your mouth!" Damn, that was a good concert.
     
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  12. biina

    biina Member

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    I get you now - when Trump makes a policy that targets specific etnicity, it is not racist, but when the SA government does similar it is racism.

    Your bias is evident
     
  13. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    WAT? When did Trump say anything about the struggles of the decaying rail town of Michurinsk?
     
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  14. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yeah... the SA government did a lot of really really horrible things. The only reason they didn’t eradicate every black face in the country is that someone had to work the fields, build the luxury resorts and serve the drinks.
     
  15. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    That's not what happened. Perhaps your bias prevents you from seeing things clearly, Trump Derangement Syndrome will do that.

    In fact, it's worth a laugh, go ahead and point out the "ethnicity" targeted by banning travel from Somalia, Venezuela, Chad, Yemen, Libya, Iran, North Korea, and Syria. I'll wait.
     
  16. biina

    biina Member

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    <This should be fun>
    Somalis, Sara, Arabs, Persians, etc
     
  17. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    Excellent piece on the subject and Trump's white supremacy.


    Here's The Story Behind That Trump Tweet On South Africa — And Why It Sparked Outrage


    For much of Wednesday, the topics the president mentioned on Twitter were familiar ones. There were the tweets about former associates Michael Cohen, who pleaded guilty to eight counts in federal court, and Paul Manafort, who was convicted of eight. There were the harsh words for Democrats and the claim he is the subject of a "witch hunt."

    But then President Trump commented on something unexpected.

    He tweeted that he had asked Secretary of State Mike Pompeo "to closely study the South Africa land and farm seizures and expropriations and the large scale killing of farmers. 'South African Government is now seizing land from white farmers.' "

    The comment appeared to be inspired by Fox News host Tucker Carlson, whom Trump tagged in the tweet. On his show Wednesday evening, Carlson had criticized the State Department for not weighing in on South African President Cyril Ramaphosa's proposed land reforms.

    Trump's tweet was an unusual way for the president to use the word "Africa" on Twitter for the first time since taking office, as The Washington Post points out. But South African leaders failed to see any flattery in the name check.

    hit back hard on the president's medium of choice. "South Africa totally rejects this narrow perception which only seeks to divide our nation and reminds us of our colonial past," the account tweeted.

    Even as this diplomatic dust-up flared — with a South African presidential spokesperson later calling the tweet "unfortunate and misinformed" — onlookers unacquainted with South African domestic policy may find themselves wrestling with a reasonable question: "Um, what?"

    Well, we've got some answers about what's going on here.

    Why land reform is a big deal in South Africa

    The roots of the controversy reach back well into South Africa's colonial past, when a small white minority held power. One crucial way the white government preserved that power was the 1913 Natives Land Act, a law that banned Africans — the vast majority of the population — from acquiring agricultural land beyond a few reserves that made up roughly a tenth of the land.

    The effects of this and other laws can be felt still today, long after South Africa became a majority-black government in 1994. Black South Africans, who make up about 80 percent of the population, own just 4 percent of the country's farms and agricultural holdings, according to government data published earlier this year.

    Since the collapse of apartheid, the brutal system of segregation that reigned in South Africa for half a century, redistribution of land has been a key — if elusive — pillar of policy for the ruling party, the African National Congress.

    The laws established under colonial rule and apartheid were "about destroying the humanity and the personhood of black South Africans," political analyst Sithembile Mbete told journalist Peter Granitz. "So when people say they want land, part of it is also about wanting ancestral belonging and dignity."

    But the ANC has struggled to fulfill its promise through voluntary buyback programs.

    Now, with an election on the horizon and a rising challenger on its left flank, the ANC is pushing a new plan to accelerate the redistribution of land. The party is pushing for the ability to expropriate some land seized by white South Africans during apartheid — and to do so without compensation when necessary.

    The plan has drawn its share of critics, who have condemned it as a policy rooted in hostility toward white farmers and disrespect for property rights. And economists warn that South Africa risks following in the dangerous footsteps of Zimbabwe, where its own chaotic land redistribution program decimated the country's economy.

    Still, President Cyril Ramaphosa has plowed ahead, urging that the country's constitution be amended to make clear the government has the right to expropriate land. Contrary to Carlson's claims and Trump's tweet, however, the South African government is not currently "seizing land from white farmers."

    "We still have a festering wound in terms of how the land was taken from our people and that wound needs to be healed and the only way to heal that wound is to give land to the people," he said earlier this month, according to local media. "Doing so will ensure a fair and prosperous future for all of our people."

    What white supremacists have to do with it

    The connection rests in Trump's claim that the "large scale killing of farmers" is unfolding in South Africa. The statement is at best misleading, and at worst, it has been condemned as a common white supremacist talking point.
     
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  18. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    continued...


    Let's take the misleading part first.

    Farms across the country have indeed seen a significant number of killings recently — but according to one of South Africa's largest farmers' organizations, Agri SA, the number of killings per year has declined to less than a third the number recorded two decades ago. And after diving into decades of data, the BBC concluded its extensive fact check last year by warning against drawing conclusions at all.

    "In short — we have no clear idea about the murder rate on South African farms," the broadcaster summed up. "And because of that, the claim being made by protesters about farmers being more likely to be murdered is not supported by reliable data."

    Nevertheless, Anton Harber, who teaches journalism in Johannesburg, tells NPR's Michele Kelemen that a group named AfriForum has strongly promoted the claim that white farmers are particularly threatened by this violence. They've gained supporters among politicians in places as far-flung as Australia, they've "sent a delegation" to speak with Tucker Carlson, and on Thursday, they "welcomed" Trump's tweet.

    "They are quite vocal, and they present themselves as a group that protects minority rights," Harber said, "but they are largely seen as a group that protects white Afrikaans' rights."

    The notion of widespread violence against whites in South Africa has gained particular currency among white supremacists around the world, according to the Anti-Defamation League.



    "It is extremely disturbing that the President of the United States echoed a longstanding and false white supremacist claim that South Africa's white farmers are targets of large-scale, racially motivated killings by South Africa's black majority," the anti-hate advocacy organization said, noting that prominent white supremacists such as Richard Spencer have espoused the claim.

    "We would hope that the President would try to understand the facts and realities of the situation in South Africa, rather than repeat disturbing, racially divisive talking points used most frequently by white supremacists."

    The Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that tracks hate crimes, also identified the claim as "a lodestar for white supremacist groups at home and abroad." And the organization named another notable figure to cite the concept of "white genocide": Dylann Roof, the self-avowed white supremacist who murdered nine people in a historically black church in 2015.

    "Trump's tweet last night about South African farmers — a complicated situation that racist propagandists reduce to a 'canary in the coal mine' scenario for white people — is one of the most startling examples of this president indulging in racist thinking."

    "Minister Sisulu said South Africa has good political, economic and trade relations with the United States of America and that diplomatic channels remain open to provide clarity on issues of mutual interest."

    Despite the quick response, the tweet has already made an impact within South Africa's borders. The country's currency, the rand, opened the day with a sputter after Trump's remark, which apparently spooked several investors already wary about land reform.

    The tweet "puts a spanner in the works of the concerted effort that President Ramaphosa has been making to clarify the land reform issue to the international community and investors," Ruth Hall, professor at the University of the Western Cape, told CNN. "The government has clearly stated that there will be no land grabs."
     
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  19. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Notice how that is multiple ethnicities, not "targeting a specific ethnicity".....what they have in common is not ethnicity, it's that they are failed states or terrorist sponsors. Situations where it would be impossible to adequately vet people coming from those places.

    You are trying to compare a perfectly reasonable security measure to outright racism and you're just not going to get away with it.
     
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  20. biina

    biina Member

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    Someone could argue that, but it would just be an excuse for them to support racist policy. As such it's an "argument" that is easily dismissed.

    That said, I would respect those who flat out admit to supporting racist policy more than those who do and lie about it or try to pretend that it's not racist.


    BTW, Saudi is the country that has originated the most terrorists by almost any measure and yet they are absent from the list.
     

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