Historic North Korea/South Korea Meeting - Trump Peace Prize?

You asked if I have a problem and I said yes. Also I don't see a difference between lies, spin, failed aspirations (which are worse imo) as you hilariously call them. You're hate for Trump is so strong that you are so naive. Like an innocent child who just found out Santa isn't real. I hope you remember that when discussing and judging other politicians.

 

Well, you answered like this: "Yes but..." and then proceeded to talk about other things. To be clear, all lying is wrong. But I do differentiate from someone like George Bush who didn't intentionally lie when he said "read my lips, no new taxes" since I believe that was his was what he was trying to do.

trump, on the other had, lied about having a signed agreement to reduce nukes and lied about having an agreement to get the remains of 200 bodies sent to the USA. trump fully knew there was no such agreement, and fully knew NK was not sending 200 bodies back. He create two offensively bad lies, for the only reason to make himself look good.

You don't find that different than what Bush said? You don't see a difference between what Bill Clinton said ("I didn't have relations with that woman Monica Lewinsky" and what Bush said?

Then factor is the constant lies from trump. Thousands of lies, big and small. And comparing my outrage about the president being a pathological liar to "find out there is no Santa?" Just shows how trump has changed you...

 

That's just a joint statement in which they espouse some aspirational goals. It's not some sort of agreement where we say we will do A, B, and C, and they will do X, Y, and Z. And I won't say that's not worth anything, but Trump struts around like he resolved the Korea problem, then waxes indignant that Un is "going back on his word" by continuing to build nukes, which of course he never forswore in the first place.

 

for the both of you, i'm not saying DT did something significant, i'm just saying, when you say he did nothing that's well a lie. you know a lie, something DT would do lol.

 

I didn't say he did nothing, I said he blatantly and offensively lied about what he did.

 

I lied? Let's see. I was responding to this:

When I said this:

Not a lie. There was no deal. There were some goodwill gestures. I did unduly minimize the release of 3 hostages, which was good.

Then you responded to @NewRoxFan in part as follows:

Which I thought was dumb:

Again I minimized what diplomacy he'd done by engaging with North Korea because there was little fruit from that diplomacy. I don't think that's a lie at all. We went into this thing because Un was acquiring and has now acquired nuclear capability and ICBMs. Trump said he would not allow it and threatened North Korea with war to stop it. That's the context. He has his summit, and he comes out declaring victory even though Un still has all his nuclear capability. We got 3 hostages back and the remains of some of our soldiers. But it's really chickenshit compared to the goals we had before the summit of preventing a nuclear North Korea. Given the target, our actual achievement is nothing. We didn't go into it because our primary objective was to get some hostages and skeletons. We went in for nukes and got no nukes.

I correct my minimization of the 3 hostages at your prompt. But react to your false claim that an agreement was signed, as we later clarify here:

Returning to the issue of nukes, Trump brags he got Un to agree in principle to the idea of a denuclearized North Korea. The agreement isn't binding, for one. But for two, Un means it as 'sure we'll give up the nukes as soon as an environment exists where we don't feel the need to have nukes to protect the dictatorship.' As in never. (Or as in as soon as you form an alliance with a brutal dictator, since that's something Trump, unlike other presidents, might want to do.) I don't really blame Trump for not solving this problem which seems pretty intractable. But his diplomacy hasn't gotten anything at all on the nuclear issue (aside from being able to back out of the fire and fury thing he foolishly engaged in). Claiming he's gotten some kind of denuclearization deal or even aspiration is putting lipstick on a pig. We have a nuclear North Korea now, that's the bottom line.

 

@JuanValdez @NewRoxFan i'm just calling you guys out for diminishing, discarding, mocking, etc... something, by all measures, historic. i wonder what it takes to impress you two.

 

We know what impresses you...

 

Usually it's things that I hadn't seen and that I thought I would never see in my lifetime but damn if you didn't impress me. Thank you for that.

 

I've been pretty clear, so don't know what explaining this one more time will accomplish, but if trump had held the meeting and come back saying "we discussed shared goals, such as nuclear reduction, stable region, worldwide peace. It was a start, a good start, and we hope to make progress over time. In the mean time, we're working on returning remains."

Instead, trump, ever the snake oil salesman, comes back saying "I accomplished world peace! He signed an agreement to cut nukes. And 200 bodies are already on their way home."

There is no agreement. Worse, NK has escalated production. And instead of 200 remains, there are 55 boxes of what could be remains of US soldiers (no way to know for sure, as only one dog tag was included). Now trump is proven to be even more of a liar, the north koreans know they made a fool of him and America. And families of deceased Korean veterans go back to wondering if there will ever be closure.

See the difference?

 

Yea but just because he talks and acts like a used car salesman and embellishes doesn't mean IT (the historic event) didn't happen. The fact that it did means maybe more of the same can. Similar to the Cuban Thaw, when Obama met Raul Castro in Cuba. It wasn't accepting a dictator, it was a small step which led to the relaxing of the Cuban embargo btw... Of course politicians facked it up and DT stupidly cancelled the changes. Hopefully future leaders continue these steps and don't regress but even if they do it doesn't change the fact that the first small steps were made.

 

I am all in favor of talking with other country's leaders. If trump did was I first described that would have been the equivalent to Obama meeting Castro.

But you keep spinning what trump did... he didn't embellish... he out right lied. Embellishing isn't saying " we have a signed agreement to denuke" when you don't have any deal at all. Embellishing isn't saying "200 remains are flying home now" when weeks later 55 boxes without documentation of what bodies are in the boxes.

Put it this way... if Obama had announced he cut everyone's taxes by 25% and you then find out that your taxes didn't go down, but instead increased 5%, would you have said Obama embellished? Or would you have led a march on Washington?

 

We're talking in circles now but I'll just say I'm glad you believe in diplomacy because your posting gave me doubts.

 

I honestly am not impressed.

Prior administrations could have met with the dictator of North Korea but did not do so because they did not want to legitimize the regime.

Further (so far) it is looking more and more like a dog and pony show with nothing of substance having come from it.

 

Look at back at all my criticisms of "bigger buttons"...

 

On historicity: My prediction about the historic significance of Trump's summit is that it marked the day that America started to learn to live with a nuclear North Korea. I like your Cuba analogy. I think Obama's overture was a manifestation of a change that was obvious for a while needed to happen eventually. It was a conflict that long outlived the Cold War and the CIA secret wars contexts it was born out of. And even if Trump chilled relations, it feels inevitable that we will eventually have a normal or even friendly relationship in the end. Likewise, Trump did something that obviously had to happen. We had to pivot from a blustery posture of blocking the nuclearization of North Korea (which went back several presidents) to accepting the fact we aren't willing to pay the price of blocking it and instead just living with it. Maybe it's best that Trump just declares victory because the alternative is to continue the old, failing policy. We have to make a nuclear North Korea okay for the American voter so presidents don't feel pressure to engage in some irrational war to disarm them. And it does feel like Trump has done enough to change the conversation about North Korea. I haven't seen nearly as much concern now about how Un can drop a nuclear missile on Los Angeles even though he still can.

But you probably disagree with all that and think instead this is a potential first step toward a deal to denuclearize North Korea, so my vision seems to be diminishing the importance by comparison. But I do think it's important just not in the same way you think. Trump's capitulation here (which isn't total, because I'm sure we'll continue to sanction them and sometimes threaten them for a long time), like his capitulation in Syria, resolves a mistake made by his predecessor who drew red lines Americans were not willing to enforce. I think it's actually good foreign policy to let Un and Assad have their way since we're not actually willing to stop them. But he also deserves some mockery if he's trying to convince people that his accomplishments actually get us closer to the goals that he's given up on.

 

The bumbling continues...

 

dotard got played by the NK dictator.

https://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-rodong-sinmun-us-unleash-war-2018-8

North Korean state media has accused the US of plotting to "unleash war" on the country while continuing to negotiate "with a smile on its face."

Sunday's Rodong Sinmun newspaper, the official mouthpiece of the ruling Worker's Party of Korea, called out "extremely provocative and dangerous" US military movements in the region.''

It also claimed that the USS Michigan, a nuclear Navy submarine, transported Green Berets and other special forces from Okinawa, Japan to the Jinhae naval base south Korea in late July or early August.

"We can not but take a serious note of the double-dealing attitudes of the US as it is busy staging secret drills involving man-killing special units while having a dialogue with a smile on its face," the op-ed reads.

The US military called the accusations made in the paper "far-fetched," according to the Washington Post.
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Laughable. First, Russians are also violating the sanctions, but no mention. Second, no clue as to how much more expensive and how much time it will take to start up the joint exercises with South Korea. And his pissy "they will be far bigger than ever before". He should have mentioned his button.