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Supreme Court barely rules 5-4 that Police need Warrant for Cellphone Location Data

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by heypartner, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    phew that was close

    [​IMG]

    https://www.npr.org/2018/06/22/6050...rant-to-get-location-information-from-cell-to



    In the case, police got location data without a warrant from the provider under the 1986 "Stored Communication Data" act now commonly used for text messages, but enacted well-before location data was a thing.

    It was such a contentious argument, that each dissenter wrote their own opinion, which is rarely done.

    The four dissenters were led by Justice Anthony Kennedy, who was joined by the court's three most conservative members, justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsuch. In a rare move, they each filed separate dissents.

    Here's a link to the "Opinion of the Court", with the four dissenting opinions:

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-402_h315.pdf

    In Germany, this doesn't even make it to Supreme Court, and the CEO of the provider would have been arrested, under their privacy laws. I much prefer Germany's privacy laws.
     
    #1 heypartner, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
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  2. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    Good outcome, imo.
     
  3. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    First saw this on The Wire about 15 years ago. Can't remember if on the television series they needed warrants.
     
  4. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    I can't remember, either. I kinda remember The Wire always making a big deal about the warrant process as part of the drama.

    Here's what the police in this case used (maybe The Wire did, too), an act dating back to 1986 wrt internet providers (ISPs). I'm shocked they enacted it waaay back then, but it was treated as business-type data that police could ask for without warrants

    The Stored Communications Act (SCA, codified at 18 U.S.C. Chapter 121 §§ 2701–2712) is a law that addresses voluntary and compelled disclosure of "stored wire and electronic communications and transactional records" held by third-party internet service providers (ISPs). It was enacted as Title II of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 (ECPA).

    The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protects the people's right "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures". However, when applied to information stored online, the Fourth Amendment's protections are potentially far weaker. In part, this is because the Fourth Amendment defines the "right to be secure" in spatial terms that do not directly apply to the "reasonable expectation of privacy" in an online context. The Fourth Amendment protects "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures."[1] The Fourth Amendment has been stressed as a right that protects people and not places, which leaves the interpretation of the amendment's language broad in scope. In addition, society has not reached clear consensus over expectations of privacy in terms of more modern (and developing, future) forms of recorded and/or transmitted information.

    Supreme Court ruled GPS/location data is new and different than the data of the above act, and they wrapped the 4th Amendment around tracking our locations, without a warrant.
     
  5. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    This brings up another question:

    Anyone else asking why is location data even stored? Maybe I'm reading the case wrong, but my understanding was they didn't dynamically track the perps in real-time, that the phone company provided historical tracking info? Why do they even have that? And how long do they keep it?

    grrrrr
     
  6. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Forever...unless legally required not to.

    In at least five years (because it'd be cheap and the knowledge commonplace enough for a middling MAGA doofus to figure out), it should be safe to assume the government can use that info to predict your movements with 80%+ accuracy like how tech companies and credit card/bank cos already can.
     
  7. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    I largely agree with your point, but I was talking about actual GPS tracking data, not internet data or where your credit card is being used.

    Again, maybe I'm misreading the case, and this is triangularization of cell-tower data, that maybe we could say that there are business reasons to allow (even need) persistence.

    But as for pure GPS location info, not the same. I hope they aren't storing that. Because that's just wildly wrong.
     
    #7 heypartner, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  8. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    I’m not sure of pure GPS info, but they’ve been storing "referential metadata" that was the heart of the warrantless FISA wiretapping scandal that hit during Dubya.

    Metadata is just 2nd level technobabble for indexing, which is great way to lie in front of a grand jury and claim the government didn’t store GPS info under the Patriot Act. For a techie, it’s much better to store the index or cliff notes of a dictionary than the actual dictionary... knowing you have ways to pull the full details later. It’s like having a million eyes looking at the cracks of a million windows and using that as a basis for a warrant. The metadata, which had location info, gave away where the windows were. Yep, all legal.

    Just as the CC companies have, telecoms have been probing for ways to monetize any and all info they collect without spooking out their customers. Part of the “moral win” Aol/Oath gave themselves when they said they wouldn’t share 3rd party data to marketers is because it’s nice they don’t share Verizon customer data. Until you realize that they’re already sharing that info themselves and are walling in their base in anticipation of other companies doing the same.


    *Members I miss: Rhadamanthus
     
  9. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    EDIT: I misread it. I think it's stored data. But I think @Invisible Fan is right... it's metadata or some other sort of data instead of GPS data.



    Below implies live location data...

    i don't think company can store your location data without your permission (it might be an opt-out though)

    Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the 5-4 decision, joining the court's four liberals. The majority declared that the Fourth Amendment guarantees an expectation of privacy and that allowing police to obtain moment-by-moment tracking of an individual's cellphone location is a kind of surveillance that the framers of the Constitution did not want to occur without a search warrant.
     
    #9 Amiga, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  10. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    doesn't imply GPS data. That description is the same as cell-tower data stored by user and time...then given to police to run triangularization algorithms on.

    I 100% agree with the Supreme Court that, regardless, anyway to track location is wrapped in the 4th Amendment wrt warrants,,,I'm just extending my concern that real GPS data is stored. Maybe the phone companies can convince me that storing cell-tower data that phones are connected to has a business need (like for pricing / roaming charges), but even that should expire rather quickly and be purged.

    Certainly GPS data has no business need over Privacy concerns.
     
  11. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    Let me explain what the data is, so we as citizens can decide if there is a business reason to persist it.

    As @Invisible Fan said, Metadata is mumbo-jumbo. Let me tell you what it likely is in this case. In compsci/data science lingo, we only use the term "Referential metadata" to refer to mapping tables. (And no, I don't mean geographical maps, but rather the computer science term "data mapping.") Mapping tables are for joining actual data together, but they hold no data. Mapping tables are useless without the data tables they join.

    So, when NSA says "referential metadata" as opposed to communication data, they still mean actual info about a users, just not the conversation.

    It's likely cell tower data stored by phone# or Mac-address, at time intervals, to track the user to a cell-tower, which would be required for later calculating roaming charges (as a reasonable example). To make the phone work, the tower "sees" the phone/user anyhow. So they just save the user info by tower at intervals.

    not Metadata as I ever use the term (as a computer scientist)...but real information data -- Tower Info/location, User Info, Time -- From that, Police can triangularize a person/owner of phone.
     
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  12. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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  13. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Interested to see the dissents. Surprised the most conservative justices didn't have a single libertarian voice out of three. Kennedy is less surprising to me.
     
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  14. utgrad97

    utgrad97 Member

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    Disappointed that it was this close.
     
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  15. Nook

    Nook Member

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    On a side note, I want to give credit to Roberts for breaking from the typical 5/4 political division. It is important that the court not be politically predictable on every issue. There should be cases where Justices on each side of the aisle break with other politically similar Justices.
     
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  16. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Gorsuch is such an odd Justice... I like the line; “Gorsuch put forth an entirely different argument, that not a single member of the Court embraced.”
     
  17. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Member

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    He is arguing to do away with the "reasonable expectation of privacy" from Katz v. United States and the third party consent from Smith v. Maryland and go back to the fourth amendment applies to anything you own under the law as a test.

    Seems legit to me.
     
  18. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    His dissenting opinion is really odd... all about our "precious bodily fluids."
     
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  19. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Another rare case of Roberts breaking with the right wing of the court (and Kennedy), just as he did with the ACA. Gorsuch has thrilled the far right. I kept telling people before the 2016 election that they had to get out and vote for Hillary, whether they liked her or not, if for no other reason than the importance of federal lifetime judicial appointments. Gorsuch is a perfect example. Mr. trump has been a disaster for moderates, for Middle America, and for the progressives and liberals of this country. The irony, at least to me, is that so many traditional conservatives, many who voted for him, now think of trump as a disaster
     
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  20. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Maybe it's just me (since I don't even understand his points), but his style of writing in that dissent is so strange. It reads almost like a blog.
     
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