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[Tracy McGrady] No matter how hard you try and how great you are, you need pieces to elevate you.

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Progs, Apr 18, 2018.

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Agree with Tmac that he never had the pieces around him to succeed in the playoffs?

  1. Yes

    53.9%
  2. No

    46.1%
  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Yes but some people are raised as employees and others are not. That Snoop Dogg failed at several jobs before becoming a rapper does actually mean everyone else was wrong. He was NOT an employee.

    Takes a certain kind of crazy to be the best. A big part of that is ego. Another part of that is your NBA education. If rookie T-Mac replaced rookie Harrison Barnes, would we be having this conversation? Probably not. His assessment of his teammates wouldn't matter and he would be in a good learning environment early on.

    The guy wasn't what we wanted him to be. Was still a great scorer and he should've gotten out of the first round several times but he never did have a team that could win the trophy.
     
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  2. xtruroyaltyx

    xtruroyaltyx Member

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  3. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Francis was growing not decline
    Had we kept Francis I think we would have went further

    Yao/Francis - lost to a team with 4 hall of famers
    TMac's teams lost to teams that were ALL WORSE THAN THAT LAKER TEAM

    Rocket River
     
    tinman likes this.
  4. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

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    One player is not enough. Teams can game plan scheme for one person as they did to Harden in recent years.

    I was trying to think which one great player by themself has one a championship....D-Wade came to mind in 2005/06
    But when you look at the roster, they seem pretty good:
    D-Wade
    Gary Payton
    Antoine Walker
    Dorell Wright
    Shaq O’Neal
    Alonzo Mourning
    Derek Anderson

    Then Dirk came to mind as Dallas won the championship in 2010/11.....but they were a well rounded team as well.
    Dirk Nowitzki
    Shawn Marion
    Tyson Chandler
    Jason Kidd
    JJ Barea
    Peja Stojakovic
    Jason Terry

    So maybe Dirk is/was great. Jury out on Jason Kidd (one of the greatest PG’s), Tyson?, Shawn Marion?, Jason Terry?
    Gimmick zone defense might have been the truth this particular year. LeBron is a good example this year.
    He may not get out of the first round if his teammates don’t start playing defense. Little late in the season to “start”
    doing something they refused to do most of the season.
     
  5. napalm06

    napalm06 Huge Flopping Fan

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    It's your argument that doesn't hold water because you provide zero context around a giant list of names, as if we are supposed to pick the best players from that list and assemble a team out of them, assuming there are no major holes on the roster. Secondly, you listed Juwan Howard.

    I'll repost this here:

    Game 7 loss to Dallas in 05 TMac had 27-7-7, and 7:3 A:TO ratio.
    Next best player outside him and Yao: 7 points
    Bench points: 6


    Game 7 loss to Utah in 07, 29-5-13 and 3 blocks. 13:2.
    Next best player outside of him and Yao: 16 points
    Bench points: 10

    Game 6 loss to Utah in 08, 40-10-5, 5:1.
    Yao did not play; next best players: Scola (15) and Novak (8)
    Bench points: 21


    #mythbusters

    There was literally a Rockets playoff game where FOUR PLAYERS SCORED.
    Yao with 26, Battier with 11, Alston with 6.
    McGrady? 24 points. This crew was a -5 on the court.
    The bench: ZERO POINTS and Head and Howard had -17 and -15 in a 14 point loss to a team that only scored 81!
    The Jazz had 33 points from their bench, who was +15.

    Tmac wasn't a choker. The data bears that fact. So Clutchfans is left to solve its own cognitive dissonance around McGrady.

    I know 50% of Clutchfans needs to place rabid blame on someone to feel better about losses. But you guys have had 10 years to fabricate and polish an argument proving that TMac is a choker, and I don't think the other 50% of us is very impressed.

    Pro-TMac arguments can delve into playoff matchups, specifically our front-court's ability to defend Dirk, Boozer, or Okur, and our backcourt's inability to hit any jumpshots (Luther Head shot 0-for in a SERIES!), poor coaching strategies, poor ball movement, zero bench scoring, and many other things. Anti-TMac "arguments" always go back to the Toronto Game and 1st round jokes.

    The 50/50 split in this poll shows that this battle will wage through the centuries. Maybe time will dissipate the bitterness that some people cling to, but it won't change the data.

    Dig in. #ClutchfansCivilWar
     
    #85 napalm06, Apr 18, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  6. James.B.H

    James.B.H Member

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    Francis averaged 14 points after 2005, you call that growing?

    Losing to a better team in the first round generally means the team is worse, because you have to get a low seed to face a great team.
     
  7. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    No one is talking championships .. . .we talking 1 round

    Rocket River
     
  8. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    The Orlando Years and beyond are irrelevent
    Francis lost it after being seperated from the Rockets and Cutinno .. . . . everyone knows that
    Lacking a true support system he faltered

    At the end of the day
    TMac's years rendered nothing any better than the Francis years
    1st round knock out

    Rocket River
     
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  9. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    You know how young Ben Simmons is?
     
  10. James.B.H

    James.B.H Member

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    We were only 1 game better, it's a 4th seed vs 5th seed match up. We lost in a close 7, that's very bad, but now totally surprising, and as I said in my earlier posts, that series Tmac didn't play well in clutch, so it was on him. But the depth issue is also there, we only had 4 NBA players.
     
  11. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

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    Works the same way.....same in the first round.....same as the second round......same as the finals.

    More talent ensures greater chances of success.
     
  12. James.B.H

    James.B.H Member

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    Ben Simmons is 21 years old, at the same age, TMAC averaged 33.8 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 8.3 assists, 1.8 steals, 1.3 blocks in the playoffs. Let's see if Simmons can give us one game, just one game similar to what Tmac averaged that year in this playoffs run. By the way, Simmons has a much better supporting cast than TMAC had at age 21.
     
  13. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    And? Young Ben Simmons is better than Toronto McGrady. That means nothing. Bringing up that T-Mac had an all star in Vince Carter in your anti-McGrady agenda is nonsense and u know it. Come with better material than that Tinman.
     
  14. napalm06

    napalm06 Huge Flopping Fan

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    Weird, I hear an excuse factory for Francis but 100% blame going to McGrady. Seems like a double standard? Being separated from Cuttino is a pro-Francis excuse? LOL. Maybe there is an entire story around both guys? Maybe a career, and even a playoff series, is a complex thing, and not just a one-line story?

    Maybe I'm crazy?
     
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  15. James.B.H

    James.B.H Member

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    At the same age(21), Tmac is in fact better than Simmons. Tmac averaged 33.8 + 6.5+8.3+1.8+1.3 in the playoffs when he was 21; Simmons now, with two game sample size, 21+9+11+1+1. TMAC's number is much better, and remember today's pace is faster, so numbers are somewhat inflated. Besides, Simmons have 4 teammates who averaged more than 15 points in this playoffs, that doesn't even count Embiid; Tmac had NONE, the second best player in his team was freaking Darrel Armstrong, who is only good enough to be the starter in those bottom dwellers.
     
  16. napalm06

    napalm06 Huge Flopping Fan

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    He fought on our court and our hearts broke with him after some awful series with some awful rosters and awful coaching, and we don't feel better by beating down the past.

    Not sure what Khloe knows about fandom and bonding. Your arguments thrive on one-liners and truisms, so how is this:

    We Rockets fans are strong enough to handle the losing without cannibalizing our own.

    The McGrady hate crew gets a much bigger kick out of repeating old jokes and thereby seems to be more visible around here, but the true fans know that real life is more complex than ESPN.
     
  17. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    I’m referring to Toronto McGrady tho since Tinman is knocking that version of McGrady for not getting out of the 1st round when he had an all star in Vince even tho it was Vince’s team and Vince shot 30% from the field and 10% from 3 in that 1st round series

    at the same age, T-Mac is better, no doubt...T-Mac pretty much always elevated his level of play in the playoffs
     
    Caesar likes this.
  18. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    I will re-iterate; his failures go far beyond just the Rockets. There is a reason that gutless beta was booed when he returned to every team he was every a star for. I will also say this, it's up to the star players to lift their teammates just as much it is for role players to support their star players. A lot of those guys were solid role players throughout their careers. T-Mac simply didn't ever make them better. Quite simply, if we replaced T-Mac with Harden, Lebron, KD, etc, the Rockets would have gotten past the first round.

    At the end of his career, he was a prima dona who didn't want to be a leader (just wanted to be paid like one and get the glories that comes with being one) whose legacy will be defined by abject playoff failures. The Toronto game was simply the straw that broke the camel's back for Rockets fans. To me, he is an even worse version of Westbrook. At least Westbrook burns with a fiery passion. T-Mac just never cared enough.
     
    #98 chenjy9, Apr 18, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
    tinman and Rocket River like this.
  19. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    At least I blame Francis for his own flame out
    I'm not throwing all his teammates under the bus to prop up a straw man

    Rocket River
     
  20. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    Too bad Yao couldn't guard Okur and let Boozer and Harpring grab every OREB in the final minutes of game 7. That was our best chance to get out of the 1st round given the opponent and health of Yao and T-Mac. It is kind of laughable how people think the Blazers with our most talented top to bottom roster outside of this season in the past decade is the same as T-Mac and Yao and Ryan Bowen starting against Dirk + tons of great role players or those Utah teams who were bad matchup for Yao or we had Yao hurt. There's extreme bias/hate here for how he ended things with the Rockets, doesn't make it not true that he had garbage supporting cast his entire career. Michael Jordan couldn't get out of the first round either because he was playing loaded teams without a single other all-star teammate.

    As the man with barely any help, he lost to a better Bucks team with Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, Glen Robinson, and other good role players. Lost to a Hornets team who was better top to bottom. Nearly beat the Pistons who would win the championship the next year with just Sheed as an addition. Had them 3-1 before they got overwhelmed and Billups went off for like 40 in game 6 and 7, completely destroying Darrell Armstrong. We all know the Rockets losses. None of that was on him. Mavs was probably mostly on JVG and having Ryan Bowen as your starting PF. Jazz loss was on Yao and once again JVG stubborn lack of adjustments. 2nd Jazz loss, Yao was out and T-Mac himself was dealing with shoulder injury iirc.
     
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