Speaking for myself, I'm not disagreeing with the league. I'm saying this is a gray area given how the rules are currently written. The league wanted to explicitly allow some extra freedom to offensive players in their tweak to the traveling rules in 2009, and players have become increasingly creative in how to exploit that language. If the league feels it is making their product look bad -- any many "purists" would say it is -- then the league could decide to make further rule tweaks or "points of emphasis" changes in the offseason to pushback. It's not like they haven't done this kind of thing in recent years.
Because I've already done it in other threads, more than once. I want someone else to study it. Don't play dumb ... Of course it isn't a necessary condition because you can pass and shoot with one hand and pin it against your leg with one hand, and hold the ball at rest from beneath it, etc, so those are listed too, but two hands is the only one that applies to McCollum, Harden, etc ... Neither the "come to rest" or "dead ball" apply in this situation. Which is why the refs never call traveling on these, and the L2M reports never correct them...and the Ref videos of gather step interpretations are always defended these step-backs. You are disagreeing with piles of league evidence ... and apparently it's because you aren't looking up the definition of palming/carrying to try to explain what "come to rest" or "dead ball" even means.
Is that what it says? Hold the ball at rest "from beneath it"? I did not see that spelled out. So a guy with huge hands, like Giannis, can grab the ball with one hand without his hand going underneath it and take an indefinite number of steps, and his dribble is still live?
sheesh...I was giving a clear example as to why they list "come to rest" as a type of end of dribble. Stop playing dumb This is why I want you to juxtapose the definition of ending a dribble with dribble violations defined in the rules. Section 2: Dribbling Violations d. A player who is dribbling may not put any part of his hand under the ball and (1) carry it from one point to another or (2) bring it to a pauseand then continue to dribble again. Note the normal legal interpretation is a logical AND with an OR followed by a AND THEN "Come to rest" is clearly meant to be stopping the dribble by holding it or the dribble violation situation of (d) above, but whereby you didn't make a violation by dribbling again. a. A player shall not run with the ball without dribbling it. Stop playing dumb
OK, now that I posted most everything to supplement your End of Dribble list, can you explain the "gray areas." I think it's perfectly OK for you or so-called "purists" to argue for a rule change wrt what constitutes the End of the Dribble and Pivot foot and even number of steps going backwards vs forwards, but I don't see a gray area in how the rules are currently written. I see no fault in the writing or how the league continues to explain the written rules with video lessons of "gather step."
You are assuming that "come to rest" is defined by a passage in a completely separate section of the rule book. At no point is "come to rest" defined as the hand being placed under the ball. For good reason. If Otis Thorpe is palming the ball with his hand over the top, the ball is clearly at rest and he cannot keep changing his pivot foot back and forth without it being called a travel. If the intention was that the hand should be underneath the ball for the ball to be at rest, they would/should have explicitly said so. Who said anything about running? One can shuffle their feet indefinitely, according to you, so long as the ball is not in both hands or is not "at rest" with the hand under the ball.
OK, this is a great one, because there is an L2M report on this game. But don't look!! In every other time on the bbs, when the league makes an official call, you will always stand behind it. What's your call? If you make a call now, I'll make one, too. Then we will look. This will be fun.
Op wasn’t a travel. Giannis travelled. Even if that’s not how the league views them, that’s how I view them.
That's fair. And to be clear, I never said CJ traveled. Only that I think there is potential for a change in enforcement so that it becomes a travel in future seasons. I am curious how you are making the distinction between the two -- one being legal and the other isn't. I think with Giannis's play, it appears that he grabbed the ball with both hands possibly just before he planted his right foot, and with CJ it appears like it might have been just after. But the plays do seem pretty similar, aside from that detail.
Hakeem and Kobe have to be the two greatest shooters with a hand in their face or double team - it seems like Dream was always fighting through a double team (and scoring).
Stop playing dumb: legal documents very often have to be read by putting together multiple definitions from different areas. Why's it so hard to grasp that to understand traveling, you must understand what the other Dribbling Violations are. Traveling is not the only one. And to understand Dribbling Violations, you must look up how Dribbling is defined. We can bet, since putting your hand underneath the ball is a defined no-no if you plan to dribble again, then "Ball coming to rest while in control of it" covers that situation. But it also wants to cover holding the ball (grabbing with one hand) that otherwise isn't covered by the "underneath" Dribbling Violation. Indeed, the rules actually say Holding, Dribbling and Passing are the three ways to control the ball. So, what do you think coming to rest means. sign...stop playing dumb. Where does the rules say that guys who can palm can shuffle their feet while doing so? Do you actually think it's a loophole to allow Thorpe and Giannis to dance in place while palming the ball, just because I quoted a rule saying "a player shall not run with the ball." ... ooooohhh....durvasa found a loop-hole. Do you not think there isn't a clear difference between holding a ball at rest and touching it during a dribble while the dribble is still active?
I'm going to say the L2M called the front right foot the pivot, then he went back with left as Step 1, and squared up with the right (Step 2) for the jump. No Travel. Do you want to do the honors of checking the L2M?
Not a travel, per L2M http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/02/L2M-MIL-TOR-02-23-2018.pdf The L2M mentions a missed travel earlier in the 4th (using enhanced video), and that OT play goes unmentioned...not even with enhanced video. Thus, no travel. Since it is officially reviewed: People's only recourse is to say they disagree with the rules and want them changed....right? . Learn from the rules. It's best to try to read the rules and understand them, because these are never called travelling. As a fan, you might as well try to understand why, like I do. Yes, of course they are similar....and there is a very easy explanation: Spoiler: Guess why these are always so similar??? They are similar because these superstar athletes are practicing the timing of the play all the time. It's a dance step move and not by accident they look alike. They work very hard to soak every split-second out of the dribble to pull off better and better step-backs, with more an more spacing. It's a progression of skillz out of necessity, since defenders are getting longer and more athletic ... especially the guys who are guarding these superstars...the superstars must get better.
No mention in L2M as a missed call. But then, there's also this: So you have an officiating expert like Ronnie Nunn (the same guy who defended some of Harden's step backs on that bballbreakdown video) saying its a clear travel, while the league's L2M report says otherwise. Interesting.
That tweet appears same night of the game. Maybe Nunn didn't have the benefit of the enhanced video and all the angles that the L2M officials did. It is a very close call. It's a matter of split-seconds to when those two hands grab the ball vs the right foot planting. And Nunn has corrected his posts in the past ... but he definitely agrees with the league wrt "gather steps," since he's a champion of explaining them.
