Please post the definition of carrying/palming before you go further with this theory. You know the league uses super slow mo cameras in their L2M reports. Go find me a step-back that was ruled carrying, and then we can compare that video to McCollums clear correct call. He's not even close to palming, even at the point of gathering the ball. Not that video. Not close. At no point does the ball actually stop like a Dr J grab, nor does he come close to getting under the Ball. It is very easy to dribble such that the upward moving ball can be delayed as a spin in your downward facing palm, yet you have no ability to actually stop the ball from falling back to the ground with just that hand. You couldn't stop the dribble even if you wanted to. Any movement of that spinning ball towards the other hand is no different than crossovers. In most cases, the dribbler would lose his handle if he tried to stop the dribble without the second hand. Compare that to cross-overs. Most ALL wicked cross overs are much closer to carrying than any of these stepbacks.
Sheesh. Dude I have refs backing me with video explainations. You do realize you are the one putting forward Theories, not me. It isn't a theory ... the rule books clearly says Two Hands, in a list of ways to stop your dribble. It is a quote. And Gathering is further explained in scores of ref videos. Read the rule book, and include reading for palming and double dribble. Touching the ball with your hand and body and continuing to dribble is double dribble. There is no running back maneuver allowed
McCollum took two steps. I'm just saying how two steps became an NBA thing to allow better dunks. You say a purist would insist that you must be going forward ... well, that really only means a purist wants better dunks. Btw: I can show many vids of spin moves by bigs (not just Hakeem) ... Duncan, Barkley, Shaq, Yao ... that involve a long step backwards prior to the gather, thus establishing the backwards foot closest to the basket as the pivot foot. And those are much closer to @durvasa's claim of palming than what McCollum did. Your Purist just means improving dunks by allowing better jumping.
Harden usually gets officiated different in the playoffs and I wouldn't be surprised if they call it a few times. Especially if crybaby Steve Kerr and the Worriers call the league and complain.
Easy travel. 3 ****ing steps. This is why NBA is becoming a joke. This **** wouldn't slide in Europe.
McCollum took 3, maybe 4, steps with the ball in contact with his hand. I’m not saying it is illegal. I’m saying the NBA may consider clarifying the rule so that it is illegal. This move does not fly pre-2000s. If you have video evidence to the contrary, please present it.
The NBA rule book says the dribble ends if “player permits the ball to come to rest while he is in control of it.” It does not require that both hands are on the ball. People who argue that McCollum’s move is a travel probably are perceiving the ball as coming to a rest in his control before he has taken his final 3 steps. I can see this very easily becoming a “point of emphasis” next year.
This. The main problem with this is that he’s allowed to carry the ball before he gathers, not that steps after the gather.
Clarify it. Say exactly what you think the rule should be. Sounds like your rule is the pivot foot is established the moment your hand touches the ball and you do not dribble again. Am I right?
sigh ... Paste the whole rule please. It's not that hard to do. Also, paste the definition of palming and double dribble. And again, also show an L2M that rules any step backs palming. You have so much video evidence against your theory.
I don’t know how they would change it. What I am certain of is that this move would have been called a travel years ago, and there will likely be people complaining loudly about it. They may end up saying that a ball-handler may not take N number of steps while in physical contact with the ball. I don’t know.
He didn't carry. Look up the definition of when a dribble is ended. Please paste the full list of when a dribble is stopped. Then paste the rule for carrying/palming and double dribble. I've done this before in other arguments...so I want someone else to do it this time. And here is McCollum. We will do this in reverse time: 1. Whether you agree or not, the refs are calling the right foot his pivot foot, and he's stepping back for his allowed 2 steps. Can we agree that this is what the refs are ruling, and what the argument is? 2. Here we go back a few frames for another look of where the right foot is, followed by the another photo of when it was first planted. 3. This is the key photo as the best picture of his left hand when the pivot foot is first planted. He isn't palming the ball by the definition I asked you to look up. At this point, the ball is not at rest @durvasa, and his hand isn't under it. 4. Here's the continued dribble in reverse. Look at the first one below and the #3 above. You can see the body came to the ball...he didn't carry the ball to the body, ball is actively spinning/suspended under his palm...live dribble. He could have actually moved the ball towards him as still be active (like a crossover dribble), but he didn't even do that. At no point is he "palming" or "carrying". Look up and post those definition please, if you disagree. It is safe to say, he could have dribbled again throughout this whole sequence.
Why don't you do this work and make whatever point you wish to make. And, then, explain why you wrote the following when the rule book clearly states that two hands on the ball is not a necessary condition for "end of dribble": and this:
Posting the rules doesn’t mean that you will read them, or comprehend them, even if you do read them. Also, posting an argument that wasn’t cohesive the first time doesn’t really help your case if you post it a second time. The ball can absolutely be gathered with one hand. That’s why part 2 exist in the rule book. According to your logic, (whether you think so or not) the second part of traveling is irrelevant because carrying covers it. If that were the case, the rules would not be written as they are. Your entire argument is full of non-sequiters because you believe your interpretation of the rules is logical, despite missing VAST swaths of scenarios where they wouldn’t apply at all. You pick and choose rules that support your view, while completely ignoring the ones that don’t. I can name at least one scenario, following your interpretation of the rules, where a player could completely cross the court by taking just 1 dribble. However, arguing with you has always been futile, because you can not adjust for new information when it is presented to you. Maybe we should start calling it 99er syndrome.
So, shouldn't I be able to ask you were in the rules history the league changed the rules. Shouldn't there at least be someone or some article representing the league saying the league is interpreting gather step like never before? Also, saying the gather step was never allowed before 2000s is definitely not true with regards to drop step spin moves in the post, and some low post fadeaway moves. As for whether the pioneers of step backs (Bird's Step Back, Dennis Johnson or Kikki Vandeweghe) used a gather step or not, lack of much video for us to look at can just mean there's not much video out there and/or those stars didn't fully progress within the rules (like Hakeem on drop steps). I can show you some Bird right now. But we will end up arguing over poor resolution videos whether a foot is down or not. As for MJ, I don't see how you can't say some of these aren't travels within your interpretation. This isn't a new era ruling just because we have so many new foreign fans who don't know the rules, yet are getting hugely vocal on reddit claiming they do.
This isn't my argument. It is the league's argument...the L2M reports and all the ref videos explaining when a dribble ends....plus when a palm/carry happens....etc. You guys are making the argument against them...not me. I'm just trying to explain why you disagree with the league and the refs so much.
http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=4563546 Point out one which you think is a travel according to the interpretation I proposed. You could be right, though refs missed calls in every era.
