You listed two players who got better in the playoffs, and several others who were only "slightly" worse, all of whom had more help than Harden. And I'd be more interested in WB's RPM than his BPM... He had a really high BPM all season, but he still didn't deserve MVP. The Thunder just had zero bench. WB's atrocious 4th quarters speak volumes to his style of play. You point 2 in your conclusion is a significant part of where we disagree... I think a big part of why Harden underperforms at times is directly related to his supporting cast. But in any case, we also disagree on point three. Until Harden is on his way downhill or the Rockets stop competing at a high level regularly, there is absolutely ZERO sense in trading Harden. Even if he puts up one or two 0 pt, 0 assist, 0 reb, 10 TO game in the playoffs every year. It's not like any of us really *know* what Harden is capable of. We're ultimately still judging by a relatively small sample size of sh!tty playoff games, and as long as the Rockets stay competitive, it's more fun to have hope that this will be the year he really turns it on in the playoffs than it is to have hope that we land a great draft pick, and that draft pick turns into a megastar, and that megastar is good enough to win us a title. Also, there are tons of good reasons to hate Karla Malone aside from the fact that he played for the Jazzholes.
Not sure why the onus is on my end here, statistically. You noted you're "pretty sure", then absolutely sure, that everyone performs worse in the playoffs and Harden's drop is in line. I provided data to back up the fact that such an assertion is false. Harden has performed MEANINGFULLY worse in the playoffs than every comparable I researched. It MIGHT be due to supporting cast. But then we have AI. We have a young 20's Lebron that took a team to the Finals with a much worse supporting cast than the Rockets have. You have a Dirk who took two teams to the Finals with "ho-hum" type supporting casts. But not just take teams to the Finals... cause its not all that to me, it's just about level of playoff play and eggs laid. Noted, the goal is for Harden to stop having shitty playoff games. I am as hopeful as the rest. He's here to stay!
I don't think I ever said I was absolutely sure that EVERYONE performs worse in the playoffs. If I did, I certainly misspoke. But I am sure that, generally speaking, teams and players take at least a small step back in productivity in the playoffs. I just did a fairly cursory check on some simple box score stats with the first few players I could think of off the top of my head, and every single one of them* did at least slightly worse in the playoffs than in the regular season, career-wise, going by FG% and TO/G. I checked for Iverson, Westbrook, Durant, Lebron, Curry, and Dirk. And I think it's pretty easy to argue that with the exception of Philly Iverson, and Lebron's first 5-6 years in Cleveland (both terms resulted in each players' worst offensive stretches in the playoffs), each one of these players has always had more help offensively than Harden has ever had in Houston. * The exception being Iverson's TO/G being slightly better in the playoffs. But his FG% was significantly worse.
Lebron and Iverson played in the garbage eastern conference Harden would have led this rockets team 2015( healthy to the finals) if he played in the east
Yes lets trade Harden! Why stop there... we should trade away the whole team... Trade Chris Paul, James Harden, Ariza, Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon, Clint Capella to the Golden State Warriors for Curry, Klay Thompson, Kevin Durant, Draymon Green, Pachulia and Igoudala... I think the League would approve!
I know nobody in the their mind wants to trade Harden now. But all it takes is a little slump or a bad pass, and the trade Harden crew will back in place. I think it's due to the fact that Harden isn't flashy like the league and networks like to use promote their brand. Harden is the anti-NBA type player, and it irritates the NBA brain trust. Deep down inside, some people are more fans of the cool NBA world than a fan of the Rockets; in that world darling teams get more favorable calls. I am a fan of the competition and winning within the rules of the game. There is no need to script an NBA storyline like league and network executives would like, it's about competing at the highest level. Harden is typically described by national NBA announced as crafty, resourceful, not as athletic, drawing cheap fouls, methodical, etc. When they say he's an MVP candidate, it's more tounge and cheek talk. Think of Lebron and you think of a Tomahawk dunk, but Harden gives you images of dribbling in for a layup. Harden's fans are those true basketball fans. It's about playing a game right and playing to win with all available resources at hand, within the rules.
Sigh. The only thing those stats mean is playoff caliber teams can focus defensive schemes on a single player better than the league at large. It comes down to the team's mix of players and who the opponent really "thinks" they need to worry about going off on them. On the rockets last year that answer was easy since harden handles the ball and is the leading scorer. Rockets were more vulnerable than any team in that regard. Stop Harden and the Rockets lose plain and simple. Now it's different. We have Paul as a potential ball handler and he could go off just as easily. In fact his effect is amplified because he OR Harden can *cause Gordon and others to go off. Last year playoff teams could both stop harden AND cause many bad plays, turnovers and missed assignments at the same time. Paul changes the complexion of the team in this regard and THAT is where his value will really show itself.
Sigh. Ok, you all are right. Harden is amazing in the playoffs. And the reason he sat in Game 6 against the Clippers was to lull them into not even trying because our scrubs were in and couldn't possible score. That's also why the bench allowed them to take the lead virtually every game against the Thunder last year. I've presented examples of other player as the singular focus in the playoffs (Kobe for a few years, AI his whole career)... but you're right, Harden's had no playoff problems.
AI's whole career? didn't he play with 20pt Weber with the sixers and Melo with the nuggets? what years was he the single focus? so I can see what you saw. howbout any active players? is it hard to find anyone comparable because the league since Kobe and AI has been a league of multi-star studded teams?
OP wanted to trade a top 25 PER of all time player for scraps! Code: Rank Player PER 1. Michael Jordan* 27.91 2. LeBron James 27.66 3. Shaquille ONeal* 26.43 4. David Robinson* 26.18 5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13 6. Chris Paul 25.70 7. Bob Pettit* 25.35 8. Kevin Durant 25.24 9. Neil Johnston* 24.69 10. Charles Barkley* 24.63 11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58 12. Dwyane Wade 24.24 13. Tim Duncan 24.22 14. Magic Johnson* 24.11 15. Karl Malone* 23.90 16. Russell Westbrook 23.75 17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59 18. Julius Erving* 23.58 19. Stephen Curry 23.53 20. Larry Bird* 23.50 21. Oscar Robertson* 23.17 22. James Harden 23.06 23. Yao Ming* 23.02 24. Kobe Bryant 22.90 25. Jerry West* 22.89 Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table Generated 11/12/2017.;
Iverson was the only offensive star (Mutumbo was the only other semi-star on the team and he was never an offensive threat) on the Sixers team that went to the 2001 finals. The fewest points he scored was 23 in Game 2. For most of his time with the Sixers, he was the sole focus. Webber was pretty washed up by the time he joined him.
1/3 of that list is still in the league. This era is impressive from the productivity/efficiency standpoint.
The total skill level of these players is just way higher than before due to better coaching/private trainers, technology that allows them to train more efficiently, and more access to film of other players. I was listening to a podcast with a basketball historian talking about Jerry West, he said that West revolutionized finishing around the basket by devising the strategy of taking a hard final dribble before going up for the shot so that he would have good momentum. That is a technique that is taught to high schoolers now. The technique advancement that these guys are making now makes what West was doing like the telegraph machine to the iPhone.
I believe we are talking about harden's playoffs performance since teams with 1 offensive focus can easily be stopped The other guy said AI for his whole career. I said no because he played with Anthony with the nuggets. So not whole career. And in the 2005 playoffs, Weber avged 19pts. So that's more than the rockets 2nd best offensive threat last year (13 pts be Ego) so Iverson was the lone offensive threat during the playoffs for most or all of his time in Philly but definitely not his whole career going to the 2001 finals not to take anything away from the AI, but that sixers team were 1) 1st seed in the Least compared to the rockets 3rd seed in the west 2) had HCA all the way to conf finals. Rockets only had HCA in the 1st round 3) top 5 defense - Ratliff, Mutombo, Snow, Hill, Mckie, Bell - while the Rockets were bottom 5 in points allowed per game I would say it wasn't really surprise they went to the finals so yeah I'll take that AI during the peak of his career had a better playoffs performance than harden last year who was entering his prime considering that the sixers were 1 in the east, had HCA and had 9 more wins against a top 14 defense team they beat in the 2nd round - with a defensive and reboundine front line of Mutombo and Ratliff - was pretty much a finals team to begin with while the rockets were 3 seed in the west, without HCA faced and lost 2nd seeded top 5 defense team with 4 more wins and a 3-1 record against the rockets, coached by 5-time champ Poppavich, with multiple players with multiple rings - with a frontcourt of only Capela with harden guarding the spurs bigs - pretty much a WCF team. While the rockets were a 1st round team before the season started after letting Dwight go and not successful in getting a legit 2nd star compared to everyone else having multiple stars - GSW, Spurs, Clips, OKC, etc... so if you were Morey, after 2 years ago's players MVP performance WCFs season and last season's MVP performance single handedly carrying the rockets to 55 wins/3rd seed in the west, beating the the MVP in the 1st round, and losing to clearly superior team and elite coach and defense just because harden wasn't able to do what HOFer AI did in his prime in the playoffs, do you trade Harden? for who/what? any AI's out there in his or entering his prime today? Or do you doule down on harden and extend him, get another superstar, improve the defense and rebounding, try to get a 3rd star, and make the prev owner $2B richer
I think Weber had a below 15 PER both in regular season and playoffs with the 76ers in 04-05. Which is below league average. Not the PER is everything, but suffice it to say, like Harden with EG, we're not talking about amazing performances next to them. Look at AI with the Nuggets. He was no longer the #1 guy. And his PER in the regular season, his 2 main seasons with the Nuggets, 18.4 and 20.9. His PER in the playoffs those years, 13.0 and 18.7. So once he was with a better #1 option, his playoff performance did go down "meaningfully", interestingly. But the rest of his career, when he was the clear #1 guy on teams with worse role players often than the Rockets with Harden, his PER was in line or higher. He had close to a 10% drop in PER the year they went to the Finals in the playoffs, then the next 3 years had solidly higher playoff PERs than regular season. Active players? Not sure, as you note, its a matter of scouring in your head who's a sole star type team that's been in the playoffs recently? Giannis last year? He had a solid, 20%+ drop in PER in the playoffs. Happy to check out stats. Love them. I just feel like its kind of strange even arguing about it. Harden has on the whole underwhelming in the playoffs compared to the regular season. On the whole - he's had a lot of GREAT, AMAZING games as well. And he's 90% of the reason they get as far as they do... noted, of course. But anyone who's objectively watched the last 5+ years could tell you with the eye test what I'm arguing. Needs better teammates? Ok. Bad officiating? Ok. Unrevealed illness or mini-concussion? Maybe??
