You posted the numbers yourself. The numbers you posted pretty much were in alignment with my statement, with the exception of Lebron (and IIRC, Dirk), it's just that they were slightly less demonstrable than Harden's dropoff. As for Westbrook, until last season, he always had Durant and Ibaka next to him... Once he became the only reasonable source of offense, he became garbage in a playoff atmosphere. It sounds like you're in many ways agreeing with me and at this point we're arguing for the sake of arguing. The places we disagree seem to be: 1. Harden's playoff performances are not any appreciable amount worse than his regular season performances, despite some major eggs laid here and there (against stellar defensive teams). 2. Trading Harden is going to get us absolutely nowhere barring a miracle. If you would trade him for friggin Dennis Smith and a 1st pick, then we're at an impasse. You don't trade the guy who is objectively best player you've had in 25 years for a fuggin draft pick... That's like betting $10,000 for a 25% chance of winning $11,000.
Well, I think we are seeing the same numbers, but disagreeing on the conclusions. To you, you are looking at Harden's numbers and saying, he's not dropping that much in the playoffs. Where, in reality, we're talking about MORE of a drop compared to almost ALL of his peers. We're talking about MORE just absolute CRAP games compared to his peers. 15% or 20%+ drops in PER in the playoffs as Harden has had some seasons with the Rockets is just too much and more than his peers. I post AI had higher PER in playoffs, Dirk had higher PER in playoffs, Lebron had higher PER in playoffs, etc, etc. and you reason... ?? ... that Harden still has some great games and his PER #'s I provided aren't him going from 25 PER to 15 PER and its the playoffs and everything is supposed to be harder so its ok? I'm not sure. Not sure how to make it any more clear. For example, Russ wasn't garbage in the playoffs last year, lol. In fact, we all saw that OKC was better than the Rockets in the minutes Russ played. His PER dropped 10%. For comparison, Harden's PER has dropped 19%, 16%, 8% and 28% the last 4 years. Russ wasn't efficient last year in the playoffs, but still his worst game, game 1, was a gamescore of 8.7... again we're talking nowhere near the 1, 1.4 type games James gives you once a post-season, seemingly. I'm not sure how else to back up my arguments with stats anymore clearly absent digging into the bballreference api and really doing some damage, which I'm not doing. I generally agree with your point #2... but absolutely hate the analogy. It's not way close to apples to apples. Sorry for the long posts, folks. I think if you want short stuff, you can head to r/nba. I don't care for the "hater" label and think those that throw out generalizations like that like @Mathrocker on the previous page (chit, tryna, dropped truth, etc.) do nothing to advance this type of discussion. Though there are definitely times for that type of fun, lol
That's the thing though, there SHOULDN'T be any discussions about trading a historically great NBA superstar in his prime that is not trying to leave. The fact that this discussion exists is a prime example of the extreme stupidity of certain opinions by individuals, especially for the likes of Russell, Randle, and Tatum. I mean, like seriously?!? This is one of the ways to make visiting fan bases think "Oh gosh, the Rockets fanbase are complete dumbasses."
That's literally exactly the kind of thing someone would have said about TMac at least from 04-07. As it turns out, he was never going to be "the guy" on a championship team. I'd agree that it's ok to pan some of the proposed trades, but to argue that someone who's name isn't Lebron or Curry should get a free, won't even discuss trading on a fan forum pass, is ludicrous. I've explained my position before, but I'm watching the Rockets and rooting for them no matter what. I'll happily except crap years for a ring. Ala Astros. With Harden's consistent playoff "blunders" and the mega team that is GSW... it should absolutely be open to debate at least....
Given T-Mac's PROVEN lack of success in the playoffs (never once made his way out of the first round), that was definitely not someone would have said about him unless you were just a fanboy. And what exactly did Curry do before Kerr got there DESPITE having Klay and Green both on the team that you are giving him a free pass? Look at the teammates Curry has had and how little he achieved until he got a better coach. Trading a guy like Harden right now is absolutely not something that warrants any sort of discussion. You don't trade a guy like Harden in his prime when he is not trying to leave.
Yes but I’m telling that is what people said. It’s only in retrospect that we can see more clearly. Curry’s not getting a free pass. He’s just where he’s at which is similar age and of course all the success. But sure 4 years ago he wasn’t untouchable. Did Kerr help? Did Klay and Drays growth help? Obviously. But Steph also got better. I happen to think Steph’s another level player from Harden and the main engine that makes GSW tick. But if Steph was on the Rockets and there was a GSW Esque squad out there hat was basically unbeatable might I suggest what if you just punted if you could get value for Steph? Maybe. But even moreso if he was 5 years in on playoff underperformances on the whole.
People say all sorts of stupid crap. Just look at this thread and the people that wanted to trade Harden for example. Doesn't make it right or smart. Curry was untouchable as far as GSW was concerned, just as Harden is untouchable as far as Harden is concerned. That's why both have stayed on their respective teams. In Curry's case, they have stuck with him through mediocrity and injuries. Why? Because you have to be an absolute moron to consider trading a superstar that wants to stay. There really is no discussion on this point. How much has Steph actually improved? He is mostly the same player outside of strengthening himself to not get knocked out from injuries as much. He's a bit less turnover prone, but his success is mainly due to coaching and Green. I would argue that Green is much more vital to the GSW engine than Curry is. That is a matter of perspective. Has Harden had a few clunkers in the playoffs? Yes, but in large he has not underperformed. With defenses keying in on him as the only source of offense for us, I expect his performance to get worse. If it wasn't for him however, we would not win most of the playoff games we have won.
harden (overrated glorified chuckerwith no defense) ryan (makes too much money) 1st (we dont need it) for klay (better two-way player than harden) zaza (gets away with undercuts/clotheslines/bodyslams) javale (shaqtin a fool goat) i say yes, does asiansensation say no? if not then who?
No way warriors would do it. Salary doesn't match either. I wish Klay gets paid twice as much so we can trade Harden, Ryan + 1st for Klay. Klay is by far the best shooter and best defender among all 5 players involved.
OP would have called to trade Lebron if he was our superstar and failed in the playoffs like he used to. "Mentally fragile". Surely not looking into a mirror.
Lol. My longest post on this page is 359 words. Which isn't much longer than the new Twitter. I guess we really are in a no attention span generation...
I'm pretty sure of you sub harden out for curry the warriors would still win the championship. Curry is fantastic I'm not a curry hater at all like a lot of ppl are. But I don't think he any better a player than harden. I think Lebron, Harden, curry are the three biggest offensive weapons in the NBA and the GMs agree because those are the three they voted for in terms of hardest to gameplan for. KD and Kawi are in that class but different type of players. Westbrook is the guy who is not on those guys level. And trading Harden is idiotic he's 28 locked up for 5 more years and loves the city. The city aspect means something he gives a lot of time and a crap load of money to this city. Harden is a good guy and stays out of trouble and other than his kardashian summer is pretty reserved and out of the spotlight. I know James harden is rich really rich but to donate 1m to the city when billionaire owners were giving that much is mad love. Not to mention he had given like 20 college scholarships the week before at his charity weekend.
You guys can going on debating. I just always have a beef about the claim that Harden led us to the WCF in 2015. We went to the WCF because of a historic comeback in Game 6 when Harden was sitting on the bench. Without that come back, there wouldn't be a Game 7 and there wouldn't be "Harden led us to the WCF" claim. And Harden has zero contribution in that come back. He's not even on the floor. Could we have gone to the WCF without Harden? Absolutely not. But the same could be said of Dwight and Smoove, and even Corey freaking Brewer. Without any of those guys, there wouldn't be a WCF appearance. That's not giving credit to any single one of them. That's saying that Harden shouldn't get the credit either.
Basketball is a team sports, but Harden is one of those historic talents that can single handily carry a team to the playoffs and past the first round with minimal talent surrounding him. Our support cast peaked in Game 6 that year, but you have to remember where they were and where they are now; Dwight continues to bounce around the league, Smoove had to get a job in China, and Brewer just sucks. Replace Harden with anyone except LBJ and you think that team would honestly have even made it to a Game 6?
No. I did not say that. You did not even address my point. The point is, if those who played around Harden in 2015 were really as bad as you claim, how come they could accomplish one of the biggest comeback of all time WITHOUT HARDEN? Again, could we have got to the WCF without Harden? No. Neither could we without those guys. The whole team got to the WCF, yes, including that crappy coach McHale. Harden was one of the key elements. But he wasn't there during the most crucial moment of the series.
I'm not sure I agree with this. I think "those others guys" were much more easily replaceable, i.e., there are likely dozens of guys in the NBA who could have played the same roles as Terry and Brewer and Smoove and gotten us to the WCFs. Only a handful of players could have played the role that Harden did that year. He was THE key element that got us the #2 seed that year. We can acknowledge the role the other guys played in the comeback without diminishing Harden's contributions that year (which I think you're doing), or deluding ourselves into thinking that those role players were the only guys in the NBA who could have orchestrated a comeback in Game 6.
