This thread sucks as much as the "I have grown to hate James Frauden" thread, yet for some inexplicable reason, these awful threads keep getting bumped....WHY????
@swyyyguy mavprick @Progs harden won 55 games that aint quittin answer my question: how many wins would Kobe have single handedly (without Shaq, Pau, Odom) carried the rockets to last year? and who would you have traded harden for last year? don't quit on me now..
you sound like someone with selective memories that chooses to wipe out memories of all of his horrible performances. In all the years of watching basketball I have never seen someone of Harden's caliber dip that low in terms of bad games in the playoffs year after year. You keep mentioning Kobe's 2 games, but even those games are nowhere near as bad as games Harden has had. And I honestly don't remember any other games Kobe poops the bed like Harden. His overall stats might be "stellar" in 2015, but he actually was not super star level impactful in any of the series we won . He was spectacular in the GSW series, that was pretty much it. I'm just going by memory here, but I remember he was really quiet in all except one win against Dallas, he shot low percentage and it was Dwight and Josh Smith that pieced up Dallas, that along with Rondo imploding onto the team. In the Clippers series he had I think a great triple double game, and one other good game, the rest he was either really quiet, or straight up stank it up like in game 6. In fact thinking about it now, I don't remember any series we've won where he was not a major liability for multiple games. I remember last year against OKC, was it game 4 or 5 or both where he was straight up throwing the game away until the rest of the team bailed him out and we somehow won the game. And let's not even talk about the Spurs ending or the Portland Series. when you are a superstar of this calibre you can't be having bad games like that multiple times in a single series, while only have 1-2 impactful games.
LOL if another superstar has a bad game after he single handedly carried a team to 3rd seed in the west at a frantic MVP level pace do you automatically say "he was straight up throwing the game away"? plus you pin on the portland loss on Harden?
Do you not remember Lebron James' 2007 or 2011 Finals performances? Or pretty much any of Kobe's elimination games? Harden is not the only guy to lay an egg in a big game in the playoffs... and he certainly won't be the last. I'm pretty sure *everyone's* game score is lower in the playoffs. Please find me proof otherwise, because that's what I've always seen, and it intuitively makes sense given that you're only playing the best teams in the playoffs (especially after the first round), AND those teams are playing at their highest possible level. And I noticed those standard deviations remained pretty much about the same if you averaged out his career, which seems to objectively nullify your point unless you start going by meaninglessly small sample sizes. Do you not remember Lebron James' 2007 or 2011 Finals performances? Or pretty much any of Kobe's elimination games? Harden is not the only guy to lay an egg in a big game in the playoffs... and he certainly won't be the last. With the Thunder, Harden struggled against them all regular season, if you recall... He shot like 30% against them. He actually played much better against them in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. They were a top 5 DRTG team in the league, IIRC. You guys are just throwing anecdotes out left and right... and in any case, my original point stands. No one is saying Harden is flawless, and maybe the small sample size of his laid eggs really are bigger than your average egg, but trading him gets us absolutely nowhere unless Milwaukee wants to offer us Giannis or Minnesota gives us KAT. Otherwise, at best, it sets us back five years.
I feel like you're just throwing out random thoughts yourself. Are you pretty sure everyone performs worse in the playoffs, or definitely sure. Cause Lebron has a higher playoff PER than regular season. And this is a guy who led the league in PER 6 straight years at one point. Was he amazing in 2007 when he was 22 years old against the Spurs in the Finals? No. But he was amazing as a 24 year old in the playoffs. But still not the eggs Harden has laid. Kobe's PER is slightly lower in the playoffs. Steph's PER is lightly lower in the playoffs. Mind you when I say slightly, I'm talking 23.3 regular season vs. 23.1 playoffs or the like. James regular season PER is 23, vs. 21.3 for the playoffs. So 10% worse. But it's "worse" when you consider his PER last year was 27.4 regular season, 23 playoffs. His PER the year before was 25.3 regular season, 21.8 playoffs. Big drops, plus the egg laying games. Not good. His PER the year before that was 26.7 regular season, 24.8 playoffs. Still not good, but not quite as much a drop... and not surprisingly, that's the year the Rockets went to the WCF... even though Harden laid an egg in that game 6 against the Clippers. The year before that, regular season PER 23.5, playoff PER 18.3. That's the year the Rockets got upset against the Blazers. The year before that, 23 regular season, 20.8 playoffs. His three years for OKC, his playoff PER was HIGHER than his regular season PER years 1 and 2 and very close year 3. See what I'm saying. His drop, AS A ROCKET, as the #1 guy, from regular season PER to playoff PER is more noticeable than the career difference, and MOST noticeable the last two years. Dirk... who people love to point to as a "hey, Dirk eventually figured it out" really just suffers from the CONSTANTLY underrated by all but the real savvy media analysts. The guy's playoff PER was 23.8 for his career, vs. 22.8 for the regular season. He outperformed in the playoffs, and if you look at stats across the board, not just PER, you see it. But he is basically remembered before winning for the Warriors upset and the Finals loss. And I'm not saying Harden has to be flawless. But does he have to have some years where in the playoffs he doesn't lay eggs and is consistently as good as the regular season?? Absolutely. Or if he has bad games, can he do things like NOT double down by shooting 20% on 10+ threes, having record breaking turnovers, and bringing no energy? Point being, the argument FOR Harden is (i) he's almost as good a regular season player you will find [unfortunately... defense], and (ii) he MAY put together one of those playoff performances in the next 4-5 years, especially if you give him more help. And I agree with both. Time for him to do it.
You are kidding right. how is Harden's performance in the playoffs even in the same stratosphere as Lebron, even Lebron's playoffs run in 2007 when he was 22 years old and he single handedly pulled that upset against the Pistons. Name me one playoffs series where Harden made his impact and carried our team to a win like Lebron did so many times in the past decade. Other stars lay an egg, no one is denying that, Harden lays multiple eggs every single playoffs in every single series. He also doesn't make up for it by having monster games to compensate that's why it stands out. also did you watch the OKC series, Harden was straight up bad except for maybe 1-2 games even with Westbrook out. I never said anything about trading Harden, except when I was pissed when we lost against the Spurs. There wouldn't be anything equal in return. but to act like Harden is anything but mediocre to straight up disappointing in the playoffs is simply not being truthful after the past 5 seasons.
What does the regular season have to do with Harden throwing the game away against OKC in the playoffs, you always bring up regular season and seeding like it means anything in playoff games. also how do you not pin the Portland loss on Harden, We lost first 2 games at home with Harden shooting 29% from the field on like 50 shots.
why do you think Lebron and Kawhi rested 10 games during the reg season last year? and proof/links/quotes where Harden threw the game away against OKC or you're just making sh*t up
Valero is tryna take a FAT STEAMING LILE OF CRAP on @swyyyguy and @Progs Yall gonna jack him up and off real good back?
Harden was bad in the Portland series. No doubt about it. Not sure why we're still bringing that up, though. That was 4 years ago. Harden's been far better in the playoffs since then.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with these posts... but I'd answer your first question with "less than James Harden", and your second question with "doubtfully".
These guys woulda wanted to trade Hakeem after we lost to the Lakers in the first round in '90 (where Hakeem had games with only 11 and 13 points each). Then they woulda made new threads after the first round sweep in '91 and another batch after missing the playoffs in '92 while calling him injury prone. For the record, I don't think this thread is stupid because I'm denying Harden's shortcomings. If this thread was just saying that he sucks or he wet the bed in the playoffs it would be fine. But "Trade Harden"? Come freaking on. Most people must not recognize how genuinely hard it is to get a top 5 level player. There are only a handful of these guys a decade and once you get one the idea is to put stuff around him not ship him for the chance at another one. There is no realistic trade for Harden that would return anything close to his value. None of the non-Giannis unicorns would even be enough and there's no way you're getting those guys as is.
What's also interesting about the Portland series is that Harden played easily his best game in the final elimination game of that series... But we lost, so that's forgotten and his poor play until that point is all we talk about. Holy hell, STRONG disagree about your assessment of 2015. He put up numbers just as good as in the regular season in both of our first two rounds. He killed Dallas in a couple games, and you're trying to give fuggin Josh Smith credit for that series? You really think we do jack **** in those playoffs without Harden? Putting up a triple double with our backs against the wall is not superstar level good? Averaging 27, 7, and 6 is not superstar level good? What the hell do you want from him? Clearly we're at an impasse if you can't even admit that Harden played incredible basketball in 2015. It sounds like you only consider Harden "impactful" if he scores 30+ on 50%+ shooting, and think he's a liability otherwise. If you keep stretching for reasons to hate, you're going to pull a muscle. Your agenda here could not be more clear at this point. "Pretty sure" is a just a matter of speech. I'm sure. Lebron James is superhuman and probably the best player to ever touch a basketball. That plus it's been obvious that as he's gotten older, he's taken the regular season off (by his standards) and reserved his real efforts and talents for the playoffs. No one is saying Harden is on Lebron's level, but even Lebron has laid a few eggs in the playoffs, even if it wasn't quite on par with what James did (2011 finals, that 10-TO game the same year Harden took a **** against GSW...). I'd still be interested in more numbers. It may be possible that Harden's game is structured such that he's always going to take a small step back in the playoffs when the game slows down and defenses tighten up, but he's still really damn good, and probably our best option. But I also think another very likely theory is that Harden for many years in Houston (unlike in OKC, where you yourself observed that his numbers did not drop off) has not played on very deep teams. He has been pretty much our only real offensive weapon/creator on a team that has very little to no real offensive system. When the playoffs come around, people can focus on Harden, and he has never had a Shaq/Pau/Odom, Dray/Klay/Durant, Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love (although in Lebron's case, he was just incredible regardless), etc to fall back on. Eric Gordon is probably the best offensive player he's ever played with in Houston in the playoffs... An Eric Gordon that was in the midst of a 6-month cold shooting streak, no less. How did Westbrook compare in the playoffs last year to the regular season, despite playing against a pretty mediocre team defensively? What about, say, Allen Iverson? (I'm trying to think of other players in similar situations, I'm really not sure how all of these guys played) In any case, I keep coming back to my original point. Let's say you're right (and I still believe you're wrong), and Harden is a loser who can't get it done in the playoffs. That loser still somehow led us to the WCF with a starting lineup that was obliterated with injuries, a crybaby center, and an absolutely awful coach, and still should have two MVPs under his belt. He's still the best player we've had in 25 years. So what is the solution? What do you guys want to do? Do you really want to trade Harden? For who? What do you think the end result is of that will be?
Well... I've at least provide some stats that say otherwise. If you've got numbers to back up the fact that nearly all superstar players drop off and lays such eggs as Harden does as regularly as he does in the playoffs, by all means, lay it out there. my research says otherwise. Again, the point is that both on the whole across all playoff games, and particular to specific "eggs", Harden's drop-off is more than most and his eggs are lower than most. I'm not really sure why Harden's game seems to take a step back more than most. I've laid out some thoughts previously. Maybe its mental, maybe he just needs to play with other 1b type guys. In either case, my point is that it happens. Whether or not he is still the Rockets best bet for the next 5-8 years is a different question which would require factoring in potential return, likelihood of GSW being strong the next 5 years, yada, yada. No doubt, he needs more help. Westbrook has a higher playoff PER than regular season. Last year his playoff PER was lower than his regular season PER, though... not that unexpected given his regular season. In the 15/16 playoffs where they should have beaten GSW, his lower GameScore that playoffs was a 9.6 against SAS. Even his relatively bad games 6/7 against GSW were still 22.1 and 15.7 gamescores. Allen Iverson has a higher playoff PER than regular season. HIs 99/00 and 06/07 playoffs were his worse, and he maybe had 1 game in those combined season in the playoffs with a gamescore of 2.8... so pretty bad, but still harden has at least 2 worse playoff games by gamescore measure. We can dig into gamescore and what it is if you want. part of the reason Harden ends up having some real crappy games is because of the turnovers. but that's valid... if you are committing that many turnovers it kills your team's chances, especially in the playoffs. DM has said something along the likes of "good" turnovers from Harden before. And I get it, sometimes there are "better" turnovers. But we all have eyes, too... we've seen some of his high turnover games in the playoffs, and its just him being lazy with the ball, making dumb passes But again, sure, maybe he just needs more help. In any case, keep throwing out player names if you want. They all seem to validate my point, which the eye test also validates. I never said Harden was a loser, or couldn't get it done in the playoffs, necessarily. I pointed out the fact, which in my view is an absolute fact, that he's performed worse in the playoffs relative to his peers vs. regular season and he consistently every year has an egg of a game or two. I then pointed out things that I think contribute to that. And noted that it will be harder for him to improve so drastically because he's fundamentally, at this point, a high turnover, below average defender, so when he has bad games, they're magnified, hence the eggs. But absolutely, he CAN have a year where that doesn't happen, and maybe that's all dependent on getting a CP3 type or two next to him. We shall see! As far as what to do? Well, I'm not entirely sure. But, consider there is a strong likelihood of the Rockets losing in the playoffs again this year with Harden having some of his normal "eggs" or bad-like games. Not to be negative... but there's still SAS, there's still GSW, and there's now a TWolves team with wing defender like Butler, there's still a Memphis squad that always makes Harden and the Rockets work hard, etc. So we'll be in that spot, and having to make decisions on what to do with CP3 (aging, was injured this year, will want huge $$). I mean I wouldn't cry if they decide to do something like - Harden to Dallas for #1 pick, Dennis Smith - Sign and trade CP3. Ideally Lebron stays in Cleveland and you convince them to SnT for CP3 and give up the Brooklyn pick. But that's some super far fetched crap, and never going to happen. And yes, would make the Rockets worse for now. Given that, what I would have done, would have been to keep pursuing other stars next to Harden, but probably not CP3. I get that the deal was there and it was kind of like they had to make it. But it's curious that they and Harden seemed to target CP3 once the season ended... like he was the obvious fit... when the team CLEARLY needed/needs that star player to be at the forward position.
Chit got real in here. CAN we get a @vlaurelio vs @swyyyguy and @Progs throw down also? The @JayZ750 vs @SuperMarioBro one has run its course. Jay is just tryna cling to his position for pride reasons after mario dropped truth. Hate harden all you want but its pretty obvious that you hold onto a top 5 talent in his prime and hope for the best. He might even fail every year here but he is our best chance at winning for the foreseeable future.
