Telling Anderson he can only shoot 3's really devalues his skill set.

This strategy is garbage to the point where I don't mind moving on from Daryl. At least I would be if Les was still picking the next GM.

 

I'm not against "adding complexities" to the system. But I also don't agree that Pops figured out our system, to implement a silver bullet defense that made it stop working.

How do you blow the Spurs out by 21 pts in Game 4, if the offense stopped working? How do you play Spurs even in Game 5, and are one stop from winning the game in regulation, and the offense stopped working. fwiw: In the 4th Q, Pops resorted to playing MDA's PnR offense himself...he did...one simple PnR after another. He did that partly to slow down the 4th Q to a crawl...because he had to after we scored 60 points in the 1st half and 85 after three.

Ryna, Ariza and Bev were a combined 11-21 on threes in Game 5. Or was that Pops master plan too. To let our offense work in 3 quarters, then take his chances slowing it down to a crawl to playing even in the 4th, to squeak into an OT, in an must-win, home 5th game...to prevent a 2-3 deficit.

Our offense didn't stop working. Each coach made adjustments in the series to a tie after Game 5 regulation, to be embarrassed in Game 6. So, we just remember the whole thing as an embarrassment and failure.

 

You might be right about this

Rocket River
I am not oppose to 2 ptrs

 

You didn't research this at all and it shows.

How do you blow out the Spurs with this offense in game 1 and 4? Hit 44% from 3pt land. That's what we did. The offense looks fantastic when you're hitting, but if the shots aren't falling it looks like nothing is working. Hence the need for caveats.

Ryna, Ariza and Bev were a combined 11-21 on threes in Game 5. Or was that Pops master plan too? The rest of the team was 5-27 so what does that matter? You're cherry picking stats.

Sometimes you have to grind and feel out what's working rather than trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. They played that crash the paint from the wing/corner-corner three and we never adjusted. So yes, Pops hedged a bet thinking we wouldn't be hot every night so long as he could put a lid on the rim for shots in the paint.

Completely different note: I have to apologize for not getting back to you our our hedging the PnR and stunting conversation. I looked up both to make sure I had a better understanding of where you were coming from. I was clearly not understanding what you were saying. The play the @DonKnock was talking about wasn't a hedge, at least not in the traditional sense. What they did was different and I didn't have time to make a series of gifs to show you the defense. I still feel like they were successful the few times they ran defense this way. They were looping around the pick causing James to back up or pause the offense. One of these days I need to get back to that. We might see it later. Charlotte has a pretty good defensive coach out there. Word of that defense might spread. We'll see. I could be wrong.

 

We blew them out. Everyone keeps saying, "Oh, when you make your shots it's easier the win." I keep saying, no, the statement is "If Rockets make their threes, they will ABSOLUTELY BLOW YOU OUT." Obviously, we could have missed like 5 of those threes and still won, at less than league average.

Pops was not playing a gambit defense to say "Oh, they can't make their shots every game. I'll just focus on stopping Harden." No, he adjusted to guard the perimeter and make Harden/Capela beat them. And we adjusted back. In Game 3, Harden and Capela struck a lot of fear in Pops, and we just lost it in the 4th. But that was enough for MDA to prove the Harden attack needed to be guarded. Then Game 4, we got our 49 3FA back, and blew them out.

Yes, I've studied that series a lot. I've made that same case before. So the stats are memorized.

Here's the key to studying those games, imso: We didn't just make the shots, we got 15-20 more looks both games, vs Game 2 and 3. Also watch how easy Harden/Capela had it in Game 3. That was due to adjustments. If there is anything we learned in difference between Game 1 and 2, is Pops learned he can't let us launch 54 open 3s. But, we did it again in Game 4, by launching 49.

If we shot the 3ball 50 times all four games, then you saying "you look fantastic when they are falling" makes sense. But imso, there were back-n-forth adjustments by both coaches.

Anyhoo: It's fine if you disagree and say Pops figured us out after Game 1. But one day, I'd prefer we meet, and we could watch those first 5 games together.

Are you saying it was a different play? I thought maybe it was. If you can, see if you can narrow it to a time period, and I'll download the whole game and make some vids.

@DonKnock's play was cut off by the highlights, so we couldn't see the start of it, but I still think that was a hedge. Ryno just slipped it.

 

who is bringing the dry erase board? And can MDmA come too? Either way, glad we agree that watching game 6 would be a waste of time.

Yes it was a different play and they ran it several times otherwise I would have thought it was a one-off. You do plenty of work on Rockets stuff, I'll find the plays and make the gifs etc. I'm the one saying that it's something different so I should be responsible for proving my case. Is there a better way to get video from a game and turn it into a gif than going to giphy? They only accept video that's less than 10 minutes from youtube so if a play you want is on a longer video, you can't gif it there. I'll probably just do my screenshot deal. That works well enough. Option 2: cell phone footage.

p.s. at a minimum, the Rockets should have adjusted the angles of the corner-three guys. We place those guys 5 feet from the baseline and it slows the wing crasher defense and opens the passing lane to them. Having any angle (rather than a straight line between the defender and wing shooter) would have made a huge difference. Just imagine the wing player being able to attack both the baseline and the middle. That's a caveat. It's not a super change but it's more complex than what we were running.

p.p.s. We played a 2 high, 2 corner, with a center pick offense the whole time. I'd argue that we should have played 3 high, 1 corner with a center pick after game 1. Attack the rim from the side without the corner shooter and you're back to making them play legit defense instead of that corner crash help b.s. that absolutely killed us.

 

Or maybe he is just a mental midget and can only really perform in non-pressure situations like the Pellies who are a loser team. Once he went to a team like Houston that wants to win then his confidence tanked. His time in Orlando is the same, when they went to the playoffs his FG% dropped to the 20's/30's. Dude's a mental midget and perennial playoff choker.

 

nba.com has a short video of every single stat. You just need to find it in the PbP. Then I d/l it and post to streamable.com. If the play involves a Harden pass, or maybe a reset, then the video may have the original PnR defense cut off. But otherwise, all possession have a vid, if not more than one vid ... for FGA, FGM, TO, RB, ST, BL, etc. You just have to know which stat to view.

Are these them?

This first one is the one we already discussed, but shows whole PnR.



This is actually 4thQ, so maybe after when the question was raised.



I'd be surprise if Coach Nick wouldn't just call that aggressive hedges with Ryan slipping the pick fast, rather than some new type of defense. Of course, the name doesn't really matter. Teams can execute things in slightly varying ways than other defenses. The second one is a classic, aggressive hedge with Kaminsky actually trying to draw a charge. Harden just went right by him,,,lulz. Kaminsky didn't really do his job that well.

The reason I thought you were talking about something else is I didn't consider these to be that good of defense, but you can probably find possessions where Rox didn't get anything. Those might be hard to find in the PBP, maybe as a Ryno 3FA missed, or a Harden TO. But once you do, it literally takes me 2 minutes to post it. So, no sweat doing it.

 

Maybe his midrange is the key to his home play

Rocket River

 

Yes, those were both ineffective versions of the defense.

I think this may be a defense that is initially a hedge and then the slip becomes natural because the defense is friggin' loose. No need to fight your way into the slip as a defender. I think I found their defense more effective when the defensive guy that came around played towards Harden some. That way if Harden were to choose to shoot over this defense, it came when he had already been forced to step back rendering a longer three and tighter passing angles if he chooses to pass. That extra spacing force by the defense also allows defenders to close gaps when Harden delivers his coveted pocket passes. Pocket pass works better on tighter defenses.

I'm working on editing an interview of my grandparents today and I have a date scheduled for later this evening, but I'll get to this soon. Maybe if I find a replay link of that game it could help. I'm pretty sure that everything I saw that was effective, was in the first half. (Which adds to your argument that Harden and MDmA already figured it out because MDmA is brilliant.)

 

Thats how well he played in NOLA, He wasn't just standing behind the Three point line

 

I'm pretty sure he doesn't mind his skill set 'devalued' for a cool $80 million. Heck you tell a guy he can only score via layups off the glass for $100 million and he'll ask you where and when he can sign.

 

btw: the second video has a Stunt in it. See #1 Malik Monk going to the nail. He is stunting along with the hedge to help it stop a pass to Ryno, and he still has skip pass responsibilities and covering the 45-cut, which we don't do much, anyhow. He will return to his man, when the hedge man makes it back to Ryno.

That likely is very effective if Kaminsky simply does a good hedge. We can also probably say that Harden is one of the few players in the league who could have gotten around Kaminsky fast enough to produce an efficient look.

btw: also, I can give you a link if you want? but let's take that offline in PMing.

 

Finally... sorry it took so long but I've been having to switch operating systems back and forth and that made the vids unavailable to me.

Example 1: I like the defense here. Everyone stays with their man. There's a foul called, but in the playoffs this is called "great defense" and you play on after you get your rebound.




Example 2: Howard closes fast and throws off Anderson's rhythm.





Example 3: I like this one because it shows how easy it is to delay the shot clock down until you can force a tough shot. Harden makes the tough shot, but the defense worked in slowing down the PnR. They turned it into a one on one situation which is statistically a lower percentage shot. Just ask the king of that Tracy McGrady.





Example 4: Even in this awkward play, Harden doesn't really have anywhere to go. A foul of this nature doesn't even net FTs. I'd mark it down as effective.





Your argument seems to be that we can just shoot over the top of that defense, but putting all your eggs in the long ball basket can shut your offense down quickly against the right team.

 

@heypartner ^

???

 

Forgot about getting back to these.

Thanks for posting those vids. Now I see what you were saying using the word "looping" around...especially that last one. The second one is what OKC/Donovan did a lot. Note, Capela is in two of them. (More on that, later.)

Your quote above is not really what I was saying, nor what I thought we were even discussing. First, we can discuss whether or not that defense is something new, or just variations of a hedge (without stunts). But then, the next part of our discussion is what the counters are, which is where the above quote doesn't represent what MDA does much at all.

The rest of this post is assuming we've encountered an aggressive hedge (with or w/o stunting) that is successfully screwing us up.

If any show by the big on Harden is working, whereby he can still recover on Ryno (especially when Ryno just slips the pick), then MDA's counters are various 3-man games....3-Man PnRs, either from the wing or from Horns, Spain PnR, and also 21-series.

1. The 3-man PnR coming from the wing is MDA picks for the picker prior to Harden getting his pick. This prevents the hedge man from getting out to Harden due to being picked. The 3rd man (if Capela) can drag to the rim. That whole class of 3-man game is about a pick prior to the PnR pick.
2. The 3-man PnR out front (or out of Horns) often has a flair screen for Ryno (after he sets the pick), or can have Capela setting the pick for Harden, after his man is picked.
3. Spain PnR is picks at the FT circle which eliminates hedging altogether.
4. 21-Series is Harden can give DHO's or passes to EGo coming out of the corner or do a keeper. If EGo is not playing, 21-Series can also be Harden coming out of the corner for Double Drag picks. Both make it really hard to double Harden with hard hedges/traps.
5. MDA will also run his Thru Series with Harden giving up the ball early looping thru the lane. As he comes back out for the ball, he gets picks on different angles making trapping him very hard...and it can still lead to a drag pick/roller.

We have other plays, too, and some 5-out Motion. But these are most common, imo.

Bottomline: What I describe here isn't invention on my part...it's just scouting the Rockets. The counters to successful, aggressive hedges are largely to scrap the 2-man game, and MDA goes to the various 3-man game/series.

 

I want to call in a "croissant hedge".

All 4 of my examples are when Ryno sets the pick. Spain PnR doesn't work with him at all in my opinion because he's not likely to go to the basket with any success.

I really like the 3 man pick. Especially when Harden decoys the whole play and stays out while EGo takes it to the rim. We had an example of that when EGo passed off to the Fresh Prince on the baseline and Mbah finished with a dunk. If that rim isn't guarded, EGo will just crash it that much harder.

I don't know the 21 series. I'll have to research what that means.

The thru series stuff being run all year has been great. I like seeing Harden utilized off the ball. We've done it plenty.

To me we're ultimately running a pick and pop play and that's where they were effective. It seems like the croissant hedge throws us for a loop. We don't seem to have a set way of dealing with it. The offensive sets you've mentioned aren't caveats to what we're running. To me we need options out of the play when it breaks. It seems to me like there is a way to get the defense off balance when they croissant hedge. I just don't know what that is yet.

Back to the study lounge.

 

I can show you videos of the Spain PnR without EGo. Ryan pops out. instead.

It's Pistol. I like to say 21-series, because MDA invented it, and that's what he called it. So, I don't use Pistol when referring to the Rockets out of respect for MDA.

It's just the 1 dribbling to or passing to the 2 who is coming out of the corner. There is a lot of action out of that initial setup. McHale ran it with Bev dribbling to Harden who was coming out of the corner. However, we mostly only run this for EGo, now. I suspect we return to using it with Harden as the 2, when Paul is on the floor with him.

 

Not every possession will work.

You saying we need a new answer is where I lose interest in discussion. Not as a criticism, it's just not my cup of tea to speculate on success of things we don't see. I'm just here to scout the Rockets. I'm not one to speculate on creating new plays for a croissant hedge, other than saying MDA will attack successful stops of his 2-man PnR by switching the picker or going to his 3-man sets/series.

Also, I'm not really in agreement with you saying all those plays above were successful defense, anyhow. But, we'll leave that aside. Unless you want me to critique each one. I just don't want to come off sounding argumentative about your critique of the plays, as that's not my main point.

Main point is: Other posters like to talk about new ways to do something to attack a defense (or what other teams do). I'm not one of them. I just like to scout, not coach. But I would like to hear you say your above quote to MDA.

Spoiler: lastly

Have you ever seen a successful defense, then about 5 minutes later you are scratching you head saying, "Why did they stop playing that defense?" Often it's because the offense made an in-game adjustment to take that defense out of the play. At some point, I'll watch the replay of the game and see if we scraped the 2-man game as a response.

 

If Ryan isn't setting the pick and rolling to the basket then I would argue that's not Spain pnr. I'm positive that Ryno can be the 3rd guy in Spain, but he's not your roller. My concern is when we go small and Ryno is the 5. He does okay around the basket, but his success percentage around the basket renders him a non-option on rolling to the alleyoop. Every play I've shown was with Ryno setting the pick. There's no complexity to that offensive set so it's easy to defend. Either Harden shoots over the defense or drives contested. If he passes the shot by the pop man is contested. All options are awkward. Clint being on the floor hasn't mattered because he's taken himself out of the play on each of my examples.

I went and studied 21-Series and that play has nothing to do with getting into the pick and pop playset and having alternate/caveat options. 21-series is really pretty and we should run it, but I'm trying to think about beating the croissant hedge when we run the high pick and pop. The pistol seems to run by non-PGs at the onset. All these plays I've categorized are PG run plays (or the pg having the all in their hand) so there's an issue.

If you're saying we should avoid high pick and pop plays when teams croissant hedge and run something else, I'd argue that it's impossible to suddenly know what the defense will do. I believe we should have caveats for when defenses react a certain way. Logically there's no way to restart a play and have the full 24 seconds to make it work because we don't like what the defense did. That's why we need caveats. If they do this, we do this. Teams that have a solid and endless if/then list can't be beat. That's why we're here.. to win it all.

The real issue is getting into an offensive set and not having that set be complex enough to put defenses on their heels. If we run an offensive set the same way all year, the opposing coach literally knows what we're going to do. They literally know our tendencies and can literally slow down our success rate in a series. NBA basketball is all about series success. We both know that. That's all I'm trying to get across.

Last year the Spurs figured us out and it showed. They lost their best player and still won 4-2. Our offense should be more confusing and it is this year. It is definitely more confusing this year. However, Pop and any decent NBA coach will abuse a tendency.

Steve Clifford is a legit NBA defensive coach and a smart coach like Pop will utilized these little lessons. He'll say, yeah, maybe we don't have it all figured out, but when the Rockets run Ryno at the 5 we do have it figured out. Sometimes those minutes where you can exploit a lineup are what determine the series victory.

To me, no detail is too small to matter. Genius coaches exploit small details. So we need to exploit small adjustments.