It seems there are individuals here who are unaware about racism's existence outside the United States, so I decided to drop this here as an example of such existence.
Dude there are people here who are unaware of the existence of black peoples out side of the US or Africa so they lump us all together.
Oh please. Not also this discussion here. This was the one place i did not have to hear about zwarte piet. This is a widely discussed topic here. They are actually slowly changing it. But it is a slow proces. And while there are of course racist everywhere don't act superior on the subject. We did not elect our racist populist. You did.
Obviously racism is not a problem outside the United States. Just ask the millions of people slaughtered by the Japanese during the Imperial Japanese era.
I know very very little about Zwerte Piet and haven't watched the video yet. I am very interesting in hearing your opinion and others from countries where this tradition exist. My understanding of Zwerte Piet is that the character is a Christmas companion who may have either been a Moor, a freed slave of African descent, or someone who was a chimney sweep and because of his work is why his face is black. My understanding is that the character isn't meant to be racially mocking but something like an Elf that hands out candy. Blackface in the US came out of the Minstrel shows and was meant to be mocking poor black slave culture. It was meant to denigrate blacks by portraying them as simple / stupid people for the amusement of primarily white audiences. It doesn't seem to me like Zwarte Piet is meant to denigrate a race. This is one where I'm wondering if this is a clash of culture with the US perception of black face being racist is influencing the view of Zwarte Piet and other cultural traditions where a blackened face is used.
Started a book called Cockroaches by Scholastique Mukasonga. Her recounting of the Rwandan genocide has been extremely powerful and shed a lot of light that even among people that share the same color pigmentation divide one another based on facial features, economic or social status and that they even distinguish the differences in identification cards. The stereotyping that all Hutu's are wide nosed and less than, while Tutsi's are wealthy elite with tall elegant features and small noses. It's been an eye opening read. I would have just been a kid when this was happening. My oldest niece would be born a year later after this genocide happened. Up to a million people murdered in a 100 days span. It's been a powerful but heartbreaking read. I know I really shouldn't be surprised that people distinguish one another even if they share the same skin color. Chicago for instance is very segregated in it's culture. There's Chinatown, Russian District, German District, Polish District, Italian District, etc. Asian countries have a history of violence on one another and do the facial stereotyping to distinguish one another fast. Central American countries distinguish one another based on stereotypes even and I know this so again I really shouldn't be surprised but even so it's an eye opening read.
I watched the whole video and thank you for posting it. It was very informative. I didn't realize that Zwarte Piet only started in the 19th C and had presumed that it was much older I also didn't know that he isn't just an Elf like character but also is sort of like Krampus and punishes wicked children. I can see how that can be tied up with Dutch Colonial past and also with negative views towards blacks. I'm also astounded at the tone deafness of the Primeminister Rutte's comments. I can see a lot of parallels between the arguments for and against keeping Zwarte Piet and protest around Confederate statues. Heritage versus changing standards of race. If the intent of this thread though was to primarily criticize Europeans for their racism one thing that the video did show is how the Dutch are working to address this situation through banning Zwarte Piet but also through Chimney Piet and preserving the character but removing the racial overtones.
Just look at Europe, Britain and France have had centuries of hostilities but the movers and shakers of each country have always been white.
Don't confuse racism and systematic racial discrimination. All countries have roughly the same amount of racists, with some countries seeing temporary flareups in racism based on internal conflict or economic hardship. Not all countries have significant systematic racial discrimination in 2017.
Well, if anyone ever made the claim that racism wasn't a problem outside of the United States, that would be a good thing to say to that person. I haven't seen anyone make that claim, however.
...apparently this bro's schit don't stink can't take it when people criticize your country? You seem to have no problem dishing it out to others!
LOL, I have no problem with people criticizing my country. I think Zwarte Piet should be changed. And I am aware of the terrible part the Dutch played during slavery. That is why I would hate it if we had statues of people supporting slavery. As I am sure you do as well. I am ashamed that so many Dutch support an idiotic xenophobic populist like Wilders. However you actually elected your idiotic xenophobic populist. Furthermore you actually support him. So while I am ashamed of some aspects of my country, it is people that have similar mind sets like you in my country that I am ashamed of. But do your worst criticizing the Netherlands. Because there are enough things to criticize. Of course racism is a problem everywhere. Only an idiot would think otherwise. However I do find it funny that people like texx and you are complaining about racism in other countries while at the same time minimalize racism in America. I am 100% percent sure that if you guys lived in the Netherlands you would support the stupid tradition of keeping Piet black. The socialist left in the Netherlands want zwarte Piet to change. So I am not sure that the conservatives on this board are making the point they think they are making. Furthermore if you want to bash another countries traditions (and with zwarte piet it is justified) make sure you have it correct. Zwarte piet is not part of Christmas. It is part of “sinterklaas” with is at the end of November ending in “Pakjesavond” on the 5th of December. It has nothing to do with Christmas. The early American settlers took this holiday and derived Santa Claus from it. And for some reason decided that the gifts should be given on Christmas. But that does not mean that Sinterklaas has anything to do with Christmas. I think you are right that this is sort of similar with the whole confedarate statue discussion. It is about tradition vs changing of tradition. Trust me I am not a fan of Rutte, But keep in mind he is our Liberal (which is similar to your republicans) and he has Wilders on his right (your teaparty/Trump), he is afraid he will lose the more extreme of his party to Wilders if he does not appear tone deaf. The people who believe this should change would never vote for him anyway. So Politically this is the smart move for him, he can only lose votes if he does not. So while iI disagree with him completly and I do not like him as a prime minister I understand why he does that. You are right, Zwarte piet has always been the helper of Sinterklaas. He was the one that either gave the kids presents and candy or punish them (with a switch or kidnapping him to Spain). I believe he should change. I believe most people do not see him as a caricature of a dark skinned person. The way he looks has changed over the years to reduce the caricature characteristics. And I believe most people supporting keeping him black do not do so as a result of being racist. They want to keep the tradition of a great children’s event. There is a lot of discussion whether the black is a result of his skin colour or from the chimney (it is his skin colour, but supporters of zwarte piet try to deny this). I think people care to much about tradition. I believe that the argument but it is a tradition is not valid in a discussion, just because we have been doing it for many years does not mean we should keep on doing it if there are other arguments why it should change. Changing the way he looks and removing the black paint will not destroy sinterklaas, and if people are insulted by the way he looks (especially keeping in mind the part the Dutch played in slavery) we should change it. If the way he looks hurts children who should enjoy this event why continue on doing that. We have been changing it for years. I am certain at some point people will finally agree to a rainbow Piet or a Chimney Piet. But like we have seen in many cases conservative tradition lovers can be stubborn. So we are progressing towards a good situation but it takes a long time.
I don't know of anyone who is unaware of racism outside of the US. The prevailing sense I see is that people assume racism is worse in other countries than it is here.
