The Astros have only been to the post-season 10 times... so you're not really working with much. Clemens-Pettite-Oswalt would still be in the upper echelon in terms of combining post-season experience with stuff that was still effective or prime effective. 98 had a staff of Randy Johnson-Reynolds-Hampton-Lima.... only the first 3 pitched in the NLDS.... but no other Astros playoff team had as much starting depth as that 1-4.
McHugh has equaled (or bettered) Lima, Reynolds, and Hampton. He's #4. Pettite is basically a solid non-choker who benefitted from being on good teams. Credit to him because he does offer value. Basically, he's a non-choking McHugh. Rejoice everyone.... Astros might enter the 2017 playoffs with its best pitching and hitters in franchise history.
I think you need to refresh your memory on the numbers the 2005 rotation put up. It's also unclear whether you're judging each year on its own, or you're looking at career track records. If you simply look at each year on its own, it will be hard for any Astros team to top the 1-2-3 the 2005 team offered going into those playoffs... enhanced or not. The McHugh of this year is still a work in progress. The McHugh of last year wasn't close to anybody on the 1998 team. LMJ also needs to actually pitch a full season to have an apples-to-apples comparison. It's still not a given that either would start a playoff game this year over Brad Peacock.
Knepper's 1986 season was as good as anything LMJ has done. Verlander has done absolutely nothing for Houston in the postseason so he is as much fantasy today as Richard. By others, you can find 3 pitchers in other seasons that have performed well for the Astros.
Agreed - the top 3 of that year were far superior to what we have this year: Clemens - 1.87 ERA Pettitte - 2.39 ERA Oswalt - 2.94 ERA vs Keuchel - 2.91 ERA Verlander - 3.82 ERA McCullers - 3.92 ERA Even accounting for the difference in leagues, there's no comparison. If you look at metrics like ERA+, the 2005 trio were each better than Keuchel this year. They also had more postseason credentials and longer track records of top-tier success.
Another worthwhile comparison would be the offenses: -----------BA----OPS--- 2005--.262---.749 2017--.287---.837 (non pitcher stats)
Not sure what isn't clear. I'm taking postseason track records and applying it to 1-2-3's for a given year. That's why JR Richard is invalid.
Richard is invalid but 6.1 innings of LMJ Astros post season start and zero Verlander Astros post season starts are?
Yep.... the 2005 team had absolutely no business (from an offensive standpoint) of having a winning record, let alone being in a pennant race. Pettite was not simply riding the coattails of a "good" team. Clemens, pound for pound, had his best season ever... at age 42. Oswalt was a workhorse that showed no signs of wearing down as the season went on.
Explore their career playoff numbers So a guy with almost 100 postseason innings of very good results, who is near-prime, healthy, and playing for an Astros team which is clearly headed for the playoffs is as much a fantasy as a retired player who pitched 0 innings? Right... I'm focusing on The Best in the playoffs though. 6.1 IP vs 0 is better by infinity. Don't neglect the fact those innings were very good work.
You're not aware of Clemens-Roy-Andy's '05 playoff numbers. Roy played the best, but arguably worse than Keuchel's two starts and LMJ's one.
Now you're looking at them in hindsight? Roy "played well" completely underscores his performance in a dominant NLCS. Pettite also had a stellar outing in what should have been the game 5 clincher. Clemens pitching out of relief in the 18 inning game also defies "played well". Going into that playoffs, they were far/away the best 1-2-3. Going into this playoffs, if that triumverent were sent here via a time machine, I'd still take them. Isn't that the point of this fruitless exercise? If we're strictly looking at playoff numbers in hindsight, Brandon Backe's numbers would trump everybody... with 36 innings pitched, he's actually one of the best Astros post-season pitchers of all time in terms of performance and sample size.
Your initial reply was in response to "possibly best lineup ever" . There was no "playoff" qualifier. If you're speaking just playoffs, I'd take Clemens, Pettite, Oswalt or Scott, Ryan, Knepper on teams that made the playoffs over the current three. I'd also take Johnson, Reynolds, Hampton. It's perfectly ok if you want to take the current three.
Agreed wholeheartedly..... if only talking about that one series. Bypassing an entire playoff to cherry-pick one game/series.... again. You must don't wanna win. As I've already stated, Clemens regressed during the playoffs. This is talking his entire career, not just '05. Pettite is a slightly better version of McHugh. Yes, Andy was excellent '05 regular season, but come playoffs, he was an upper-middle class man's Collin. You're not aware of Backe's numbers.
My initial response has a STRONG playoff sentiment. Anyone who misses that is only looking to argue. Numbers don't back your decision, but it's a free country.
I'm not arguing, just offering the trios I would take over the trio you mentioned. So, assuming you didn't how any of the trios I mentioned would perform in those respective year's playoffs, you'd still take the current year's guys?
And, to explain my position a bit more, I offer a hypothetical. Assume it's game 7 of the world series. Tying run on third, 2 outs. Altuve is 2 for 28 in the series, Jake is 14 for 26. I'll take Altuve at the plate. In the same vein, regardless of past playoff performance. I'll take Clemens (HOF career), Pettitte (great career), and Oswalt (among greatest Astros pitchers ever).
First let me say, no trio is light-years ahead of the others. The current crop features the best numbers, so they're my first. Potentially three aces there. Followed by... Scott-Nolan-Knepper Clemens-Roy-Pettite Randy-Shane-Mike Richard-Ryan-Niekro could've been the greatest had it happened.
