1) Yes, of course assist leaders can be ball-hogs. Those are the guys who don't want to make a pass unless it directly results in an assist. For instance, wouldn't you agree that Russell Westbrook is a ball-hog? Well, he was #3 in assists per game this year. By your logic, that means he's not a ball-hog. 2) Gordon and Williams generally get to be the playmaker when Harden is on the bench. 3) Since he's not a gifted athlete (relative to other NBA elites), he needs to be creative if he wants to succeed. Look at how the Spurs neutralized him. They knew exactly what he was going to do and how to properly defend it. Unless you have an unstoppable move (Kareem's sky-hook, Dirk's fadeaway, Shaq's bully power-dunk), being predictable guarantees failure.
1) Sure. D'Antoni asks Harden to be a high usage player. He still does not compare with Westbrook's usage in any way. 2) Sure. The Rockets let the best playmaker on the team do a majority of the playmaking when he's on the court. 3) A fair point, but Harden's done well adapting in his career. Maybe this is the next step. Only his first year at PG...
1) In other words, you acknowledge that high assist guys can be ball-hogs. 2) In other words, he's not exactly "sharing" the ball with Gordon/Williams. 3) This was at least his 4th year at PG. He's played the exact same role for a long time. The only difference is his usage and who brings the ball up-court. In the past, Beverley would bring the ball up, give it to Harden at half-court, and then Harden would run the offense. Before becoming a creative player, he needs to improve his conditioning and his ball-handling skills. The creative guys in the league all have the ball on a string whereas Harden is limited to one crossover move which has become predictable. Given that he hasn't improved his game in 2 years, I'm skeptical of this level of improvement.
Now you're just arguing semantics and definition. But fine, if you want to do that. Google: "choking definition sports" The answer is: In sports, a choke is the failure of an athlete or an athletic team to win a game or tournament when the player or team had been strongly favored to win or had squandered a large lead in the late stages of the event. I make no judgement on how scared he was. Or how nervous he was. Why he's consistently under-performed in the playoffs is somewhat relevant, but only to the extent it provides backbone to an argument that it might change. Personally, I do think he was nervous, but they all are. Even professional athletes. I don't think that contributed the most to the choke. I've laid out his flaws many times, especially the ones that haunt him come playoff time. As for him having great playoff games, too. Yes, sure, absolutely. I'm not calling him a bum or a bad player or anything. I just don't think he has it in him to get us over the top. His great games are balanced out by scratch your head wtf games. I'll detail below in the spoiler. Spoiler For elimination games: * 12/13 = 3 straight elimination games against the Thunder. He was AWFUL the first game, which the team nonetheless one. 10 turnovers. a 3.9 gamescore (which is almost as bad as game 6 this year). He was great the next game, another win. And he was pretty solid in game 6, an elimination loss. * 13/14 = He started the series against Portland horribly, leading to two straight losses at home. Came back with a really strong game 3, a win, then was just ok for games 4/5, which they split. ANd in his defense, he was really really good in game 6, which they should have won. Though he was involved in directing the traffic on the Parsons defense of Lillard the last possession. What he was directing made no sense. Which itself makes sense, because not sure why you'd want Harden making defensive calls. * 14/15 = his best playoffs, and the playoffs that made you think just get him some more talent and he can do this. Of course the games that can be brought up are games 1 against the Clippers, and of course game 6, an elimination game, against the Clippers where he was dreadful. Then he came back strong for a couple games, including games 1/2 against the Warriors where it seemed like he was close to willing the team to victories. But I guess that took the nergy out of him, because he was awful game 3 at home. Then he was amazing game 4 at home, unquestionably his best single game playoff performance as a Rocket. 45 points, 9 boards, 5 assists, only 3 turnovers. So amazing in an elimination game. Then he followed that up with either his worst or second worst performance in the playoffs. 2-11, 12 turnovers... a 1.0 gamescore. Still, the hope coming out of these playoffs was very very high. He dragged a crap ass team to 5 games against a dominant team. * 15/16 = not really worth discussing. He played fine, though completely uninspired in the playoffs. * 16/17 = generally played pretty decently up till the last two games. Generally. His 3 point shot was never really on, and he kept racking up the turnovers. And the way it ended. Yikes, yikes, yikes. So some good games in there? Sure, absolutely. But there is absolutely no signature game or moment or series. He's had chances for moments - opportunities to tie or win games on last second shots, but no luck. He's had chances in series. Opportunities to take down really good teams, more talented teams, but no luck. As often as not he (and the team) have failed in those opportunities. Lost with homecourt against the Blazers. SHOULD HAVE lost with homecourt against the Clippers. SHOULD HAVE beaten without homecourt an injured Spurs team this year. It's solid play, just incredibly inconsistent. And it's because of his flaws as a player, not really his flaws with his mindset, or nervousness. * In the playoffs, you simply can't really on your 3 point shot so much, if your % isn't that great in the playoffs. As I said, 14/15 was solid, but he was 34% against the Thunder which is fine but not exceptional, and then 30%, 31% and 28% (this year) in the other three years. Those are the three years he shot the most 3 point attempts per game in the playoffs by the way. He seems to shoot more, the worse he shoots. I think he thinks he'll eventually shoot his way out of it. The problem is the analytics based 3's philosophy breaks down when you are shooting at that low % at volume. He shot 27.8% from three in the playoffs, yet decided to jack 10.5 threes a game. * In the playoffs you can't turn the ball over, again and again. He's averaging close to 6 turnovers a game in his last 17 playoff games. Just from the eye test, many of those turnovers lead to opponent transition points. I guess this year he averaged slightly less TO/g in the playoffs then the regular season, though the prior 2 years it was more. Not that it matters, if you're averaging 5+ turnovers a game, that's a problem. If you're doing it against good teams, it's a real problem. His turnovers per 100 possessions in the playoffs have gone from 4.1 to 5.7 to 6.6 to 7.2... * In the playoffs you can't rely so consistently on ft's. Does he shoot a high % in the playoffs? Sure. Not meaningfully better then the regular season. Basically the same. 2 of the last 4 years he shot somewhat better, 2 of the last 4 years somewhat worse, % wise. Which doesn't matter much, he shoots a very high % and that's not the problem. Except for 1 of the last 4 years, he shoots less FTs per game in the playoffs than in the regular season. The difference isn't huge, but it is meaningful. This is especially true because of how important each game is as you advance deep into the playoffs. Like this year, where he feasted at the line the first round, but then got shut down the second. This will depend on the series, and on the refs and how they call the game, etc. * In the playoffs you can not be so consistently below average as a defender. On a critical possession at the end of a game you can not have a miscommunication that allows the star player to get open for a split second and hit an incredible game winner. You can not close out so poorly as to let a guy who basically NEVER gets and-one's and isn't known as a driver, to blow by you and get and and-one to take the game. Most importantly you just have to be better and more competent. Harden's regular season DRtgs the last 5 years = 106, 107, 103, 108, 107. Playoff Drtgs = 109, 115, 109, 111, 108. I don't think individual DRtg is the greatest stat, but the consistency of him being a worse defender in the post-season, when he's already not a great defender... well, it SUCKS. Can he become a better defender, can he reduce his turnovers while keeping the same usage, can he learn to adjust his game better if he isn't getting calls, and can he either hit a better 3 point % or learn not to keep bombing?? I think the answer to some or all of these could be yes. But after a number of years, you have to realize it might not happen. Am I being overly negative? Probably. He obviously does some great things, too, and has done it all without many other all star players around him. But we're talking about a league of truly dominant players, superstars and teams. You can't consistently come up short and get a pass or not be called a "choker" even if you don't like that term. [/spolier]
The way you talk about him...you'd think Harden is a middle of the pack player. Oh well. Agree to disagree.
Um... 2 way superstars that win rings are as much the norm as the exception. Lebron, Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Kawhi, Hakeem, Jordan, KG, Wade, DRob. Then you have guys that aren't defensive stalwarts, but buy into the system and scheme and for the most part aren't huge liabilities. Dirk (though he has become a defensive liability the last 3/4 years, he wasn't before even though not a great defender),, Steph as the prime examples. Then you have a bunch of superstars that didn't win rings but got close and weren't defensive liabilities either. KD, CP3, Ewing, Payton (yes he won ar ing with Miami), Malone (not a liability). I mean sure, Steve Nash was a defensive liability. Charles Barkley wasn't necessarily a liability, but he wasn't solid. Harden improved his defense this year to be not completely and utterly embarrassing... which is embarrassing. More concrete evidence required? Look at the all - defense team history. http://www.nba.com/history/all-defensive-teams/ Sure, you have your PBev's and Iguodala and Tony Allen's mixed in there... defensive specialists. But you have a ton of superstars/stars as well - Lebron, PG, Kawhi, Draymond, Butler, CP3, Duncan, Conley, Duncan, Howard, Kobe, Rondo, KG, Wade, Jason Kidd, Chauncey, Shaq (yes, even Shaq, who couldn't guard a pick and roll for his life, has multiple all defense team appearances), Payton, Mourning, Scottie Pippen, Karl Malone, DRob, MJ, Stockton (yes, John freaking Stockton commited himself to defense at times), Hakeem, Dumars, Starks, Ewing, Kevin McHale, Kareem, Larry Bird, Moses, Walton... I mean I've gone on and on because I can. The history of the NBA is exactly about committed, two way star players. The best of the best not only committed to defense, but studied it, were proud of it, strives to be the best at it.
This is conjecture at best. The same thing was said about a jump shooting team never winning a championship. I know right, those bossy arrogant players who are ball dominant are so hard to find good pairings with. That's why Kobe struggled to find a running mate for years and never won anything. Your arguments are weak and full of random conjecture. I would think the league has players that are not as myopic as you, that understand that Harden has put up historic numbers and in the process resuscitated the stagnant careers of players like Eric Gordon and Ryan Anderson. Harden straight up, makes his teammates better.
Did we all see the same game 6? Can we believe our eyes? If so, how can we not be done with Harden? There is no excuse for what he pulled in game 6, our elimination game. I could maybe blame exhaustion for the three straight turnovers in game 5 OT. Game 6 though... I respect others who differ. For me, though, I'm done with Harden. Boston has assets, and that #1 pick. C'mon Morey, git'r'done!
You are playing a rather odd semantics game here, but the point remains that Harden was a complete no-show in Game 6 and became a turnover machine who was completely unable to play basketball like a pro in the OT of Game 5. I don't think you can find a single person who would consider these performances mere bad games - they were complete and utter meltdowns. We have yet to hear anything that indicates these meltdowns were due to injury, drugs, or collusion. Nor was the Spurs' defense (while good) so spectacular that it rendered Harden into a passive non-factor who looked like he didn't even want to be on the court. So that leaves the mental part, and thus it is wholly accurate to say Harden "choked." Great players rise to the occasion. Harden has not once risen to the occasion in any of our playoff series. When the pressure is on, he becomes a terribly mistake-prone player who often hangs his head and stops trying. It happened throughout the 2014 Portland series, it happened in Game 6 of the 2015 Clipper series, it happened in Game 2 and Game 5 of the 2015 Warriors series, it happened throughout the 2016 Warriors series, and now it's happened again against the Spurs this year. How can a team expect to win a championship when it's a given that their best player will **** the bed at least 1-2 games per playoff series? How can you argue that another player or players will change this? How can you even legitimately argue that another legitimate superstar or some additional complimentary role players will be interested in playing with Harden given his history? The Rockets can hold on to Harden another few seasons and watch history repeat itself. Or they can be bold and take a loss now for a chance to be legit contenders in the future. It is true that most one-star teams didn't get equal value when they've traded their superstar, but it's also true that they weren't going to win anything with that same superstar. And there are numerous examples of teams holding onto a star player too long, only to lose them ultimately for nothing and with nothing to show. Personally, I think now is the time to be bold.
Houston Rockets Trade Breakdown Change in Team Outlook: +1.3 ppg, +6.5 rpg, and -3.5 apg. Incoming Players Luol Deng 32 year old, 6-9, 220 lb GF from Duke 7.6 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 26.5 minutes in 2016-2017 D'Angelo Russell 21 year old, 6-5, 195 lb SG from Ohio State 15.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 4.8 apg in 28.7 minutes in 2016-2017 Larry Nance, Jr. 24 year old, 6-9, 230 lb SF from Wyoming 7.2 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.5 apg in 22.9 minutes in 2016-2017 Outgoing Players James Harden 27 year old, 6-5, 220 lb SG from Arizona State 29.1 ppg, 8.2
It's the truth. There's a reason that Harden consistently underperforms in the playoffs. His foul-baiting style won't succeed in the playoffs. In the playoffs, he faces better players and defensive schemes. Kobe found a unicorn. Pau Gasol had the skills of an alpha but the mindset of a beta. How many current players have that combination? Plus, he had the best frontcourt in the league with Gasol/Bynum/Odom. We'll never be able to get that kind of talent in our frontcourt if we want our SF and PF to be exclusive spot up shooters at the 3pt line. My arguments are logically sound which is why its tough for you guys to argue against me. Eric Gordon and Ryan Anderson had stagnant careers b/c the Pelicans were constantly hit by injuries. If you look at their stats, you'll see that while they were good, they weren't anything special compared to previous years. In regards to "making his teammates better", Harden clearly makes Capela better, and maybe Ariza, but that's about it. I'm iffy on Ariza b/c he's the same player for us that he was in Washington, except he was a better 3pt% shooter in Washington. Anderson/Gordon actually make Harden better b/c their ability to shoot from 4 ft behind the 3pt line gives Harden much more space with which to work. Beverley had a career year b/c he lost 15 lbs in the offseason which improved all aspects of his game.
Anderson and Gordon played well within their career averages but fortunately avoided injury. Don't believe me - take a look: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoer01.html http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anderry01.html Anderson shot a little better from the 3 - that's the lone improvement I can see. Please name all the big free agents (who weren't playing their final season or two) that went to play with Kobe. Their championship core lineups were the result of a high draft pick (Bynum) and trades (Gasol). We all are making flawed arguments in one way or another, but screaming "Harden's numbers are historic!!!!!" isn't an argument at all. It doesn't explain away his history of choking and a history of expecting his teammates to cater to his ball dominance and cover for his awful defense (particularly his total lack of awareness when it comes to team defense ). He's by far the worst "leader" we've had since McGrady. For example, how often have we seen him barking at his teammates after he blows his own defensive cover? All the damn time and I'm frankly tired of seeing it. Recognizing the futility of trying to build around Harden isn't myopia or conjecture - it's the logical conclusion from watching him fall apart in the big games year after year.
"Change in Team Outlook: +1.3 ppg, +6.5 rpg, and -3.5 apg. Incoming Players Luol Deng 32 year old, 6-9, 220 lb GF from Duke 7.6 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 26.5 minutes in 2016-2017 D'Angelo Russell 21 year old, 6-5, 195 lb SG from Ohio State 15.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 4.8 apg in 28.7 minutes in 2016-2017 Larry Nance, Jr. 24 year old, 6-9, 230 lb SF from Wyoming 7.2 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.5 apg in 22.9 minutes in 2016-2017 Outgoing Players James Harden 27 year old, 6-5, 220 lb SG from Arizona State 29.1 ppg, 8.2[/QUOTE] So, you want to trade Harden for 3 people who's combined ppg is almost equal to Harden's ppg?
By that logic the Thunder should trade Westbrook, Celtics should trade Thomas, Wizards should trade Wall, Clippers should trade their whole team, Blazers should trade Lillard and McCollum, Raptors should trade Lowry and Derozan, Bucks should trade Giannis, Grizzlies should trade Conley, Pelicans should trade Davis and Cousins. Maybe you should trade your stupid ideas for smart ones.
Like I said, I he was indefensibly bad. I'm not trying to say it was OK. But I'm not really convinced it's evidence of some grand problem that he'll never be able to correct. He has played well in these games, too, but people only remember the games you're eliminated in if you played poorly. I think it's possible he "gave up"... that would be the most scary possibility. I think it's possible he was hungover from the strip club and/or had some kind of healthy/stamina issue. This is slightly less scary (depending on the exact situation), and also probably the most likely. But I don't think there is any worthwhile evidence that Harden would play like this again if put in a similar situation again. If anything, there is evidence to the contrary. These are ridiculous overreactions, but I guess we just gotta deal with them for the next several months.
TRADE HARDEN????. . . . Why are people so thirsty for that 14th pick in the draft again? Rocket River
If you clicked on the spoiler in my post you quoted, you'll see where I went through all 5 postseasons with Harden. Harden has played like this before, though the level of "give-upness" was never quite as bad as game 6 this year. But every year he has one or more crap playoff game, pretty much every year he under-performs his regular season stats and is exposed even more defensively, and in no year has he put a stamp on a series. He has very few games in the playoffs where you can say that's Harden's game. His best playoff game as a rocket came when down 3-0 to the Warriors. To look back through the games, game 5 (end) and 6 this year do in fact point to evidence of a trend. To be clear on my personal position, I am not advocating trading Harden for a future lotto pick, or trading Harden for an obviously lesser package of players. I am advocating trading him, literally, for this year's top pick, or #2 pick. But even this year's #2 pick I'd pass, since I don't want the Lonzo Ball show. And even then, if Boston is willing to make a trade, I am asking for this year's #1 plus other assets, probably next year's Nets pick and a player. And from what my Celtics friends have said... they aren't really interested in Harden in the first place, much less for that ask. They all want Jimmy Butler.
