Exactly. The plan needs to be to get multiple stars. We have one. we need more undervalued assets to trade for a star (like celtics did with jeff green to get KG) or need to hit a homerun in free agency (like cavs did to pair lebron with kyrie) or suck for a year with harden (like spurs did with robinson to get duncan with him) I mean could you imagine if cavs/celts traded kyrie or pierce for picks back then? Or if spurs traded robinson for picks? The path to a title is always a longshot and probably not gonna happen but trading harden puts us further away, not closer, to a title. We would just have to wait 5-10 years to MAYBE get a guy as good as harden and be in the same position we are in today It woulda been so much better if we truly sucked that 41-41 year and got a high draft pick asset for morey to cash in on
It's the most logical outcome. At some point during 5 years of rebuilding, its reasonable to think we'd be able to draft a future star.
I think it is always good to test your star player. Essentially three outcomes for him next year. 1. Redeem himself. Be a better player. Go to the WCF and take the Warriors to 7 or win the series. 2. Like this year. Solid regular season 2-5 seed. 2nd round exit. Status Quo. 2b. 2nd round but exit the last game uninspired and quit. 3. Sulking. Plays an ok regular season and shows up not in shape before the playoffs, mails it in. Basically Option 2 or 3 are not going to get us one step closer to the Goal. Option 2 might warrant giving him another year to prove himself, and Option 2b, Option 3 suggest to really think about trading him or benching him for games.
Those stars needs to be able to play well together, and some stars simply can't. Iverson didn't. Carmelo doesn't. Given what Harden has shown us over these past few years, it's hard to imagine another star flourishing alongside him.
If we apply those 3 options to the aftermath of the 2016 season, how would you rate the 2017 season? For me, 2017 was a 2; so the question becomes, how many times do we give him another year to prove himself?
Harden was a much different player in OKC in terms of both mindset and ability. At this point in his career, do you think he'd allow himself to become a beta? And what happened in the year after we made the WCF? Harden showed up to 2016 out of shape, feuded with his co-star, and had a down year. That's not really my definition of "playing well with other stars".
Ok...so you're back to having 1 star. Cool. And why is that the most logical outcome? Why it "logical" that they'd improve on their 55 win team? Has that been the case for teams like the Timberwolves or the Wizards or the Magic or Suns or the Lakers or the Kings, or all these other teams that have sucked for years despite tons of high draft picks? Yet another "grass is greener" mindset. It's not "logical" at all. Harden is screwed from the jump then. 1) He's not beating the Warriors unless the Rockets have a massive talent upgrade alongside him. That's a fact. If that's his standard for success, then the standard is not realistic. 2) If reaching the realistic ceiling for this team is considered a disappointment, then once again, he's screwed from the jump. Unrealistic standards. 3) This would absolutely be a disappointment, but I doubt it happens. Could, but I'd bet against it.
haha... all (from all responses) very valid responses. I would point out, it seems illogical to use the sixers, when you could also point to almost every championship team. I guess we're not the Warriors either, so will have to settle with losing to the Warriors every year, or before getting to them. Probably not the Thunder of last year either, a team with a legitimate shot to beat the Warriors, who could have been even better if they weren't cheap.
I added a 2.b. option. As long as Morey is GM, I do not think Harden will be traded before his 30th birthday. He would have to murder MDA or throw someone important under the bus, burn the bridges very bad. Harden is his biggest coup. Personally I would give him 2 years. That is only fair. See if Durant and Curry are declining. We should file a petition and demand to go through the draft after that. With or without Harden.
Agreed. They're random numbers. Lol. No way to get better numbers. I think the crux of the argument is my belief that their chance of winning a ring at ANY TIME in the future is higher without Harden (assuming a return like I have laid out) than with him.
Correct. This is the reality of the NBA. If you don't have multiple Hall of Fame talents (we have one), then you aren't winning.
Um, the definition of a choker in sports is exactly what happened to him in game 6. And the 4th quarter/OT of game 5.
Yah they are numbers out of my ass lol. Theres just no way to quantify it. Im just dropping them like that to try to convey my mindset and philosophy of building a title team lol. Thats just where we differ right there. I believe that harden can be the foundational star of a title team with another star and good players around him and you believe that he isnt good enough to be a foundational star on a title team. I really think our differences in opinion of team building come down to that
Absolutely. Which is why I'm trying to find a path to get multiple. And I'm just copying the path of basically every team over the last few decades - through the draft. Even if you point to the Celtics with Pierce. They got KG by trading back a young "star potential" player. They got Allen by trading a top 5 lotto pick. I guess in the best of best case scenarios, the Rockets could try and move Capela for a KG/Ray Allen like player. Nothing on the horizon there occasionally, but maybe it happens at some point...
The Pizza Da Hut guy told us the story about a younger Hakeem who wanted to be traded and ended up being the face of the franchise for decades to come. He was a two player, an elite 2 way player at that, and you could see it from his younger days. I think the best guarantee is to have a two way player as your superstar player. At least you can count on him once his shot is not falling. I do not think every Top 5 talent is the same. Some are worthier, and some are worse. If you want a guarantee, a 2 way player can at least guarantee playing hard on both ends. Make sure he is a mentally strong player as well.
Yep. It's cool. I guess I don't want to really put it all on Harden's final 5 quarters in an otherwise impressive season. And I'm not really putting it all on that... but that is the trigger point. To look at the Thunder series... where he wasn't bad, but wasn't exactly super-star level. I said this in another thread, but where is Harden's signature playoff moments? He's had some solid games, but more playoff non-moments, than moments. His 14/15 playoffs was close. BUT, he struggled to start the Clippers series and of course couldn't be payed down the stretch of game 6, then he had such clunker of games in Games 3 and 5 against the Warriors that year. Like ridiculously bad. Sour taste to end that season. He struggled that first year against the Thunder. Just wasn't efficient. He and they all struggled against the Blazers - made Wes Matthews a bunch of money, though. Last year was a disappointment almost from the get go. Than this year. He's averaging 5.7 turnovers per game his last 17 playoff games... which is basically the same as his season average this year. I hate to be bballholic, but that's just crazy.
I swear that some of y'all post **** without even thinking. OK. You want to trade Harden. For who? Do you understand how rare it is to trade a superstar in their prime? Let's consider some the recent ones. We have Vince Carter to the Nets, TMac to Houston, Shaq to Miami, Carmelo to NYK, CP3 to LA, Pau to LA. I'm probably missing a few, but that's what comes to mind. Now consider all of those teams to traded away their franchise players, and which teams had even an IOTA of success? Toronto was terrible when Vince left. Orlando was terrible enough to get the first pick and get Dwight and end up in the Finals later. LA had Kobe and could afford to trade Shaq, but they still had to wait until Pau came to contend. Denver sucks. New Orleans sucks, although they do have two all-NBA big men. Memphis did well to get Marc back. Teams that trade their superstars usually never get anything back in return. It's usually a way to tank the next couple of seasons after that. Why would you subject the Rockets to that? We would be in the lottery next year and for what? To most likely take some bust at #6? No thank you. I'll stick with Harden for the remainder of his contract and then we'll see what we have to do. You don't just give up guys that are this talented. What we NEED to do is drastically improve the front court , and that really all starts with moving Ryan Anderson. Find a young replacement for Ariza. Keep working on Clint and hope that out of Montrezl, Chinanu, or Zhou, someone steps up to be a good role player off the bench.
Also lost Parsons for nothing, in contrast to Brooks, Battier, and Lowry. Heck, also lost Dragic for nothing... then signed Lin which cost playoff games and a first round pick to unload.
