BBALLBREAKDOWN: Is James Harden Breaking the NBA Rule Book?

He's saying he's got legal position vs the offensive players arm, but not the offensive players body. So you have to run through Gobert's arms. And you can't decide to shoot like a layup even. If your layup motion hits Gobert's extended arms, it's an offensive foul.

And if you're cutting through or fighting for rebounding position, you also can't touch his arms with yours, since his 7'8" wingspan was there first,,,sorry. You have to get through them with body only, and if they are at face level, sorry you have to cut through with your face or neck, or do the limbo and go under his arms

 

Gobert's arm would be in legal position relative to other arms. But it would not be in legal position against someone's torso.

 

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The rule doesn't say "it depends in who initiate contact". It says "any contact with an extended arm".

 

Quote the rule and I'll give you my perspective.

 

Yea his argument is pretty stupid, but that is par for course for him.

All you have do is watch the Gibson clip and pretend Gibson isn't there and Harden is going up for the shot. It's a natural shooting path, the arm impedes the path and creates contact. It's clearly a foul.

 

I'll always remember you as the guy who said that Aaron Brooks was on the same level as Steve Nash.

In every natural shooting motion I've seen, the shooter's dominant hand goes to the ball in a straight line. I've never seen a natural shooting motion (for a jump shot) where the ball-handler's dominant hand swings out in front of his body in an elliptical path towards the ball.

 

See how Reggie Miller fouls two defenders here who have legal position with their extended arms. He is not allowed to fight through using his arms.

He must push through with only his torso. Amirite wekko



This is called superstar treatment. Curry fights through these legal extended arms without using just his torso too. Offensive foul.

 

Quote the rule. You have the link. Now guide me through the book oh great rule maker.

 

Miller isn't dislodging the opponent with his arms. But you should note that Miller IS running through the contact with his torso.

 

Section I—Types a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an opponent by extending a hand, arm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a position that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.

IMO, the bolded is what applies to Harden's hooking.

 

It applies to the defenders sticking their arms out to slow down Harden.

 

coach nick is right, it is clearly a foul, but the question is whether its a shooting foul, a cpl years back the nba changed the rule so that up down is shooting and left right isn't, the odd thing trying to change this one though is it makes it awfully interpretative on whether its shooting or not, it's not like if you get bumped on the way to the rim that chucking it at the ring is a natural shooting motion either,

 

Lulz.reggie clearly swipes away the second guys arm out of his way. He dislodges his arm out of the legal extended position. And that swimming maneuver happens all the time to get through extended arms on cutting and rebounding, and not a foul

And someone coming in for a layup can't shoot through extended arms. They have to go under first or use their torso. Pretty much half of the AND1 on drives are an offensive foul

 

The hook is a byproduct of the defensive player having his arm extended. It's only a foul on Harden provided you assume that having their arm out at the initial contact isn't a foul

When a defender jumps in the air and the offensive player jumps into him, of course the offensive player is initiating the contact, but its still a foul.

 

Anyone else remember how Yao Ming, Manute Bol and Pau Gasol used to extend their arms out in the lane, so the guards had to run into them with their face for a foul, or go underneath their arms, because they had a legal extended arm position. And cutters had to run into their arms with their face, too.

And how you couldn't shoot through their arms, on layups



And here is the new Bucks defense ... legal extended arm position, forcing you to dribble through with your face or go under. And this doesn't include 7'1 Thon Maker in the middle.

 

And here is the classic Swim Move against rebounders with legal extended arms. This is now a foul, because you can't hit their arms.

 

I understand what you are saying. But is it a DEFENSIVE foul if the driver grab the defender's arm? That's what the OP is talking about, right?

 

You grab with you hands...Harden is not doing that he just going up. The only valid argument I could see is when he is going up the ball is not gather in his shooting hand and that's only when he drives right. That's why earlier it's more of a bang bang call in real time.

 

I'm fine with the Gibson one being a no-call, especially since Gibson was just flashing and trying to recover to his man vs guarding Harden. A no-call on that is often a turnover, so that is quite a negative reinforcement call, which should result in Harden doing it less and less.

But again, that Gibson play is typically not the play we are talking about. We are usually discussing Harden's defender trying to fight over a pick by moving his arm through first, or cookie jar. I like what someone else said earlier, that we can't really talk about this via texting unless we agree that there are 3-4 different categories of plays where Harden gets a shooting foul that ppl argue over.

Nunn's "after-thought" interpretation seems OK, too...but only with regard to shooting foul vs common foul. I don't recall that ever being implemented. He said they discussed it wrt Isiah back in the day. I guess maybe they did. I do recall Isiah flinging up shots when he wasn't even really looking at the basket. That could become a "point of emphasis" without really any written rule change.

But I think Nunn takes it a little too far with the offensive foul talk. That would be an extreme situation...not the norm or very common. It's a slippery slope to call any shooting motion that Harden does an offensive foul. Anybody have a video of the offensive foul they called on him last game (or was it Game 4?) It was on a drive, as I recall. I'm going to guess he elbowed the defender in the body as well...or the ref thought he did.

 

Miller moves the defender's arm, but he doesn't dislodge the person. The swimming maneuver is the same thing. It moves the arms, but it doesn't dislodge the person.

You realize that my perspective is contingent on the defender being stationary, right? How often are defenders stationary when defending drives?