James Harden is gonna get screwed over again in MVP Voting

It would probably be easier to play defense if you weren't responsible for your whole team's offense.

Kawahi's offense is old Jordan esque.

 

LOL

 

The narrative changes from year to year based on who they want to win it.

The whole "Harden has good teammates and Westbrook has NOTHING!" argument was flipped on its head when Curry won against Harden. Then they said "Curry makes his teammates better!" all while Curry's team was blowing out the other team as he joked it up on the bench.

 

This also ignores the fact that the Rockets were unanimously predicted to finish no higher than a 7-8 seed. In fact, I'd say at least 50% of media/analysts had OKC finishing higher than Houston.

Now...predictions can obviously be incorrect, but the notion that Harden "has too much help" has circulated all season as if they were expected to do this all along. Harden surpassed expectations for the Rockets. Westbrook has merely met them, and in some cases underwhelmed, and for some reason, that failing to meet expectations is now not only a factor, but a primary reason for Westbrook winning MVP. It's mindless. And adding onto this...it's not like the voters who think Westbrook should win it thought Harden should win it back in 2015. There are tons who were for Curry, and now are shifting their entire stance to Westbrook for literally the exact opposite reasoning.

 

Anyone can make argument for any of: Harden, Westbrook, Kwahi, Lebron
I think that's your 4. KD would have been in there, but no more with the injury.

The argument against Kwahi, imo, is that his team would suffer the least if you replaced him with an average SF. The Spurs would still find a way to win 50 games. Plus, he's not a statistical juggernaut.

The argument against Lebron is that he has a ton of talent around him, seems to "coast" at time, and voter fatigue.

The argument against Westbrook is team record, and the fact that it's remotely possible that while his team obviously would be crap without him, he may nonetheless not be getting the most out of his teammates.

The argument against Harden is high turnovers, defense because of Shaqtin a Fool and 2015/16 videos, and a general dislike for his game from the media.

I do think, at this point, Harden will lose it. Through no fault of his own. I do think Westbrook will win it, even though I don't agree with it. I'd actually vote Harden, Kwahi, Lebron, Westbrook.

Call me a Westbrook hater, but the argument for him is pure #s based. And in that regard, I've seen what his numbers look like with other better players next to him, and it's not a triple double. So should I give a guy an MVP because his teammates uck and his usage is through the roof? Lebron could average a triple double, too, no question. And he's been on some talent deprived teams, too. Harden is what, a rebound and a half away from a triple double average? Should I make my MVP decision on a 1-2 rpg difference from the guard position? That seems ludicrous, to me. If Westbrook averaged 9.75 rpg instead of 10+ does that change the voting? It just doesn't make sense.

And I still think the Thunder can be better. His teammates were apparently better on paper before the season started than Harden's.

Media is so tone def to their own opinions as recent as last week, much less months ago. But google: nba regular season predictions

Bleacher Report: Spurs 61-21, Thunder 46-36, Rockets, 42-40
CBS: Thunder win total O/U = 45.5, Rockets = 43
ESPN: Thunder 46-36, Rockets 45-37
Fox Sports: Thunder 45.5, Rockets 41.5
ABC News: Thunder 45.7, Rockets 46.9

Even with all that, even I could be swayed to vote for Westbrook, given the triple double average, if it was just obvious to me that the way he played was the BEST way for him to play for his team to win. And I just don't think it is. I think they haven't gotten the most out of Oladipo. I think the bigs have suffered - Adams for example has better absolute stats but lower Ortg, Drtg and of course not surprisingly rebounds per 100 possessions. And perhaps as importantly I don't think they've gotten the most out of Billy Donovan. They're paying Billy Donovan $6 million a year to basically do what I can do - not much of anything while Westbrook acts as a wrecking crew out there. I certainly won't call Westbrook's stats empty stats, but they're close.

 

There was not a single major outlet that had the Rockets in front of the Thunder in the last preview or power ranking they released prior to the season.

ESPN, SI, Bleacher Report, Five Thirty-Eight, USA Today - all had the Thunder in front, some significantly so.

Make sure anyone making the inane talent argument knows these facts. No one else will fight back against this false narrative but Rockets fans but the idea that we were supposed to do this all along is moving the goalposts to the nth degree.

 

I think most media ppl will vote for harden.

I think some of you are being to pessimistic.

Westbrook is a good player but his team is not performing well there 12-20 on the road. That's terrible you can't be MVP and have that negative of a record away from home.

 

@JayZ750, that was a phenomenal post!

 

Wow, who would've thought that DallAss owner would end up giving Harden possibly his biggest push.

 

It's his biggest goal this season, he will probably start trying before last game.

 

Never forget the expectations.

 

Westbrook was looking like a favorite for the MVP award less than 6 days ago after he led a comeback win at home vs Utah and the Rockets had just laid an egg at home vs the Pacers.

But since then, his team has lost 3 straight games on the road against inferior opponents(Blazers, Suns, Mavs). Westbrook lost his composure and nearly got tossed in last night's blowout defeat in Dallas. His team has lost 7 straight overall on the road. And the Thunder are currently in 7th place and a full 9 games back of the Rockets.

I get that averaging a triple double is a huge deal, but there has to be more to the award than just stats. A team on pace for 45-46 wins should not have the league's MVP on it.

 

Exchange I had on another site, wanted to share it here.

I don't think it matters because of the pervasive characterization of Harden as a "no defense playing flopper" and the diametric characterization of Westbrook as "A gladiator that will do anything it takes to will his team to victory". Every deduction is a derivative of those two images.

Westbrook takes 30 shots in a game and the narrative is: "Well who else on his team is supposed to take those shots?"

The Rockets take 50+ three's in a game and hit 38% and the narrative is: "This many threes is ruining basketball!"

Kawhi has become the safety net pick should Russ slip out of the triple double.

I hate pinning these three against each other because they're three of my favorite players to watch. But the media, who actually do the voting for MVP, are spineless about how they will switch it up like this. Russ generates the best highlights and the most clicks/ratings, especially due to the KD -> Warriors angle. They spend 3 segments taking about Westbrook wearing essentially a crossing guard vest cause they have nothing better to talk about. The triple double stat is so easy to watch and follow that they can spoon feed it to the casual audience.

Talking about things like points per weighed shot, different actions on a pick and roll, giving a defender different looks over the course of a game to build up to something like this:




Those are hard/boring topics that will lose these casual watchers. Most media and casual fans, all the way up to even a large portion of seasoned fans, don't have the knowledge or nuance to break the game down to this level of elemental phenomena.

There's a reason that NBA players voted Harden their MVP two years ago, constantly rave about his offensive prowess, incorporate his moves into their game (In the SA-NOLA game last weeks they mentioned how Pop has Kawhi pour over tape of Harden to study how to draw fouls and penetrate into the lane craftily as a larger player).

Kawhi goes through a very similar cycle of under-appreciation. People notice steals, but they don't notice icing a PnR, forcing a driver to their weak hand, staying grounded on a shot fake, etc.

Just watch this, it's much easier:

 

Westbrook is a spartan/warrior and Harden is a composer/artist.

Thats my biased characterization.

Westbrook is so athletic and dominant but harden is so smooth,rythmic, and creative

 

Agree with Ben. Almost all voters will have Harden top-2 top-3 at worst. Some voters will flat out disqualify Westbrook because of the Thunder's record and he'll lose out.

 

I think if the Spurs pull off the #1 seed, Kawhi gets it. Barring that, the MVP is Harden's to lose right now.

 

Mark Cuban is right: Russell Westbrook doesn’t deserve to be NBA MVP

This is a great article going in-depth as to why Russ should not be crowned as the league's MVP. But it also shows why Kawhi, not LeBron, is the biggest threat to Harden's MVP chances. In every argument that could be made in favor of Harden - such as the team record, high TS%, and high WS/48 - Kawhi comes out better. And it's really tricky to suggest that Harden carries the bigger load for his team given their similar usage rate and Harden's mediocre impact stat numbers such as RPM and On/Off Net Rating.

Despite all of that, Harden does have better volume stats, which most casual fans and non-analytic type media personalities usually look at when evaluating players.

 

The thing about this is that it would be entirely justified. Winning, stats, exceeding expectations, etc. will all be rewarded in such a scenario. Can't argue with Kawhi.

Westbrook, though? Nah.

 

I'll copy what I wrote in the Rockets vs. Spurs thread since it's more appropriate here:

I'd really like to know what the criteria are for Harden getting the MVP in the minds of most sportswriters who get to vote.

With Westbrook, conventional wisdom seems to be if he averages a triple double and if his team wins say 48-50 games, he's the MVP. Certainly if the Thunder beat out Utah for the division, he would be a lock.

With Kawhi making a late push, it seems like his fate is tied to the #1 seed. If the Spurs get that, he'll get a lot more support. Maybe not enough to win the award, but he'd be a strong contender.

With LeBron, it's because he's LeBron, and his team is the defending champion, has the best record in the East, and the 4th best record in the NBA.

With Harden.....what is it exactly? His numbers are certainly MVP worthy. He's had some historical games including two 50-point triple doubles(including the first and only 50-15-15 performance). He's had late game heroics like the comeback win vs Chicago, the pass to Nene against OKC, and all the assists as well as the defense against Wiggins in that comeback at Minnesota. And his team has far surpassed anyone's preseason expectations, even the most diehard Rockets fans on this site.

Is there one stat or accomplishment that would put Harden over the top? If the Rockets match or surpass the 1994 title team's franchise record of 58 wins, would that be enough? If Harden dominates tonight vs the Spurs, Sunday vs the Cavs, and on March 26 vs the Thunder, would that be the statement the media is looking for? If the Rockets finish with a better record than Cleveland and at least 10 games ahead of OKC, would that do it? Or is this a case of every other MVP contender having to lose the award first before Harden can win it?