It's a bull **** call. let's be honest. It's great for him, but please. Also, it is very easy to outlaw. The league office simply tells the refs not to call it. They could also just say it is a non shooting foul. These types of year to year adjustments happen all the time, and it wouldn't surprise me to see this call "adjusted".
How do you define the difference in the rule book though? Ts gotta be more than eye test. Give me a logical and explicit way to define the difference
I don't think people appreciate this about Harden...... every year he is the trend setter for a rules/instinct exploitation.... On defense your taught to stay in constant contact of an offensive player in order to not get burnt.... so naturally if your getting beat around a screen your gonna get put your hands on the guy so you can catch up.... brilliant!!!!! What's crazy is that people don't even seem to notice that he comes with something different every single..... analyst are still talking about his rip through on his drives and he hasn't used that in 2 yrs. He's literally forcing defenders to play with their feet.....
forget the definition of "shot pocket." Kawhi's hands are on Durant's hips...alternating both of them. I could argue that Kawhi fouls him with his left hand only after Durant gets the ball to that side of his body and starts to go up. Again, I'm not trying to argue, Just discussing what might fall under the Personal Foul 2011 rule. There's a nice video explanation of the 2011 rule I just found at NBA.com. It says the foul is not a shooting foul if contact occurs while moving/swinging the ball from one side to the other. The video shows Durant even more tightly guarded than above, but indeed defender fouls him earlier even before ball is on Durant's shooting side, so "on the floor" is called. my reading of that is Harden makes a clear disctinction by gathering off a dribble, which makes it hard for the Refs to apply the rule moving ball left to right (or vice versa), even when the defender could be doing the same thing as Kawhi above. Again, I agree most of the time he is on the way up, so moot point on those occasions. But let's keep an eye out for if he gathering horizontally through someone's arms. Those are the ones that might not get called wrt OP's question.
this is an oversimplification, but, if the rulebook says: "if a defender impedes a shooter's motion by extending his arms through a shot, creating contact, a violation occurs." That could be changed to: "If a defender impedes a shooter's motion by extending his arms through a shot, creating contact, a violation occurs. However, if the offensive player's shooting motion has not started before a defensive player's arms are extended, the offensive player is responsible for creating the contact with the defensive player, thus, no violation occurs on the shot. Lastly, if the contact created by the offensive player is egregious enough to warrant a violation on the defensive player, such a violation should be considered non-shooting. "
Putting hands on someone's hips is not a foul in and of itself. That's not where the foul occurred. You're allowed to touch players. I don't mean to argue either, but I think you may be misunderstanding why the foul is called "on the floor" and why that wasn't always the case. Six years ago, that's a shooting foul.
Ugh. Now I completely regret using your phrase "Shot Pocket." and tagging you. The distinction I'm making (refer to the posts I was responding to--Easy) is others in this thread were offering a distinction about the 2011 rule based on where the arms are of the defender, reaching in or outstretched. I'm showing a video of Kawhi with hands on Durant's hip. Can't be much better example of reaching in than having your hands on someone's hips. Hence, where the arms are is not the distinction Stu Jackson was making. I know that isn't the foul. I know the foul is from Durant moving the ball such that Kawhi rakes his arms. I know that is a Personal Foul now I know it used to be a Shooting Foul Are we done, now?
My interpretation is that rip-through is where the ball is coming from. If you are swinging from left to right or vice versa to create contact, that is not a defensive foul. I think Harden found a loophole in the rules that as long as you are in a "shooting" motion, it is ok to initate contact. This example is not as devious as Harden's but seems like it is perfectly legal move.... http://videorulebook.nba.com/archiv...es-straight-up-foul-in-the-act-of-shooting-2/
It's still a foul. You mean that it isn't a shooting foul. And yeah, that's the definition of the 2011 Ruling to make it a Personal Foul vs Shooting.
Correct but it seems he found a loophole. Would be interested to hear what the refs says about this topic.
The difference I see between the above play and the play in question for harden, is a difference in lower body position. IMO Lopez is stationary, clearly in a shooting stance when the foul occurs. The call Harden gets that I think should not be called, occurs when harden is moving around a screen almost perpendicular to the basket. He sees the defenders arm and raises into a shooting motion, but the position of his body when the foul occurs, and that fact that he is moving, clearly indicate to me he is not in a true shooting motion. If the foul is called it should be on the floor.
I think this thread shows how discretionary this can be haha. Can anybody define what a "catch" is in football? Lol. Its tough to be a ref. People will always disagree
Some of the calls he gets are outrageous. There are times where he doesn't even have both hands on the ball while shooting. He has one hand on the ball going up for the shot, his other hand is trying to initiate the contact. In theory I don't think that should be called, his "shot" is on the left hand, his right hand is not part of the jumper since it's not touching the ball.
Very true. I think every sports fan agrees that a refs discretion can impact a game and decide who wins and loses sometimes
That's dumb. Defenders could exploit this rule change by always having their arms in your shooting space before you raise up. The reality is that what is being done to him is a foul. He knows the arm is coming so he raises up but he isn't actually creating contact, he's doing a natural shooting motion.
All the great ISO players do it - they swing the ball around until the defender gets caught with their arms out towards the ball handler, then they swing the ball in upwards motion initiating contact and simultaneously appearing to be in a shooting motion before the defender has a chance to move their arms out of the way. Harden is really good at initiating this kind of contact and so is Chris Paul. I've seen him use this move quite often at the three point line to draw the shooting foul (though it can be argued that it should be a just a personal foul). The problem with this kind of baiting is that the refs do call it less in the playoffs and players that routinely rely on it during the regular season are expecting it during the playoffs. Stuff like that can change the outcome of a game because of this disparity between regular season and playoffs.
He is obviously creating the contact. The last part of my rule says that if the ref thought the contact created was egregious, i.e. the defender just kept his arms out constantly then a foul could be called. That would solve for the exploitation of the rule by defenders. I am mostly referring to times when harden is coming around a pick, hooks the defender, and throws his hands up in a "shooting motion" when he isn't even really facing the basket, thus, it isn't a natural shooting motion. he is just throwing his arms up to get a call. We have even seen refs start to call offensive fouls when he hooks the defender on this play.
