Harden's IQ to draw fouls is off the charts. If they outlaw it for any reason, Jim will just find another way. No biggie. No matter what, he is getting to the line at around 10 times a game, playoffs or not.
This is just the perimeter version of what Tim Duncan used to do. I can't see the NBA having justification to make a rule against it. The defender just needs to be smarter.
Is he driving on the Cookie Jar three pointers? I just don't understand when exactly they started calling the rip-through a shooting foul, again. As you mention, it was made pretty clear in 2011 that it is no longer a shooting foul....just a common foul. I am against the rip-through getting fouls shots, and Harden does it a lot, so I guess the league reintstated it as a shooting foul. Here's the 2011 ruling from Stu Jackson. NBA vice president of basketball operations Stu Jackson confirmed Wednesday that several new rule interpretations will be a point of emphasis for the league's referees when the regular season begins on Dec. 25. "Rip-through" moves, in which an offensive player swings the ball into a defender's outstretched arm and then attempts a shot once he has created contact, will be considered non-shooting fouls if the contact begins before the offensive player starts his shooting motion. "Certain types of contact involving the shooter were all being called in his favor," Jackson said. "It doesn't look good for the game. There was a strong feeling that those types of plays were creating an ill-advised reward for the shooter, often with three free throws." He's clearly talking about the Cookie-Jar shooting foul,....when KD and Martin would rip-through the outstretched arm, just like Harden is now.
I'm literally amazed at how good he is at exploiting this naturally occurring defensive measure. Thing is, it's not really a foul unless he shoots, and sure, he's known to hook an arm but it's still a foul. You can't pull a guy's arm down when he shoots and there's really no way to rule it out of the game without a huge, fundamental shift in the rules and officiating. You just gotta know where the cookie jar is and keep your hands out of it. Play better defense. Get around the pick faster...get picked and switch off...I mean, it's not preferable I get that but that's how it is guarding an offensive player as great as Harden. He forces favorable situations.
Harden doesn't "rip through" like Duncan did. What he did was clearly different from his shooting motion. Nobody swings their arms in a circular motion before shooting. Harden goes up in a real shooting motion, and he does it quickly. There's really no way the NBA can outlaw this. You're entitled to shoot whenever you want, and if there's an arm hitting yours on it's natural way up, it's a shooting foul. Defenders just need to keep their arms out of the damn cookie jar. I too am surprised nobody thought of this sooner. Exploit the hell out of it until defenders learn.
They still call the rip through a common foul. Players don't get free throws on those unless the other team is over the limit. Harden may not be driving to the basket on those cookie jar threes, but he is handling the ball. The rip through is when both players are stationary, players swing their arms to the side to hook the defenders arm which is in the vertical shot pocket. You can't really argue that is a natural shooting motion, hence common foul. Harden is different in that he has the defender on his hip or side and their arm is across his body rather than just in the shot pocket. He more or less puts his arms forward and up as if he were shooting. The league considers both situations fouls, but Harden's is considered a shot attempt because it looks more like a normal one. I think it's a tough situation for a defender. If they reach to poke the ball away and the offensive player pulls up for a shot to initiate contact, is that a foul? Is it a shooting foul? League says yes. Describing it that way makes it sound like a foul, but playing and having it happen to you is incredibly cheap.
I agree, Harden is more noted for starting with the ball low or while dribbling, then going straight up, often against like a hand-check type defense. But I don't find them to be different enough to have two different rulings. I think that Durant/Martin ruling just went away. That's all I'm saying. Shooters very often circle the ball from one side to another to keep the ball away from the defender as they move it to their shooting side. Players also "rip through" in a circular motion from one side to the other prior to a drive. A rip through is an actual move to protect the ball when taking it from one side of body to the other. It's not just for the foul. Here's the classic Harden Cookie Jar where defender is holding his hand out and Harden goes straight up. Harden is on far baseline on this highlight. btw use LEFT ARROW and RIGHT ARROW to move back in forth 5 seconds. Here's another where defender is trying to squeeze through a pick, and also puts his arm out. ppl don't like this call, because of how far away it is. Similarly, ppl don't like calls where you just know Harden would never shoot it otherwise. Common foul, fine....shooting foul, not so much. Recently, he is passing (poor passes, imo) while attempting this, when the defender actually pulls his hand away in time, so he's not going to get the call.
I was taught growing up that you want to get in a player's space on defense. Get your hands in their shot pocket so that can't just easily raise up. Face guarding was okay. The NBA makes it seem like you need your hands at your sides the entire time.
agree. I'm the same exact way but this also goes with discipline. Know the personnel that you're guarding. Guarantee all the well coached teams have these Harden tendencies as bullet points. But it's up to the players IQ to execute and not makes certain mistakes to put them in bad positions. How well do players listen and respond
I think you're right. I looked up some "Durant Rip-Through" videos, and they are being called "Personal Fouls" when matched to the play-by-play, versus "Shooting Fouls." (PnP uses two different names for the fouls.) So, the rip-through move (while completely normal and taught to kids to get the ball safely from one side of your body to the other, when defenders are in your "shot pocket" as you say above) is called a Personal Foul vs the Cookie Jar Shooting Foul, because Harden is actually dribbling while Durant is stationary. I do think that is a fine distinction. Although, I would guess that Harden gets the call even when not dribbling. But maybe they are in the bonus for the FT trip. Will keep an eye out. Anyhoot: thanks for making the distinction of dribbling vs not dribbling.
I'm fine when the just give it a no-call. When they actually call Harden for an offensive foul, that's BS.
I think Harden does it when players are reaching rather than in the rip-through when they just have their arms outstretched, hence it's called a foul. It's not easy, otherwise more players would do it. I think most of it is anticipation by Harden on when they will reach.
The interesting thing about the move to me is that I don't think a lot of kids are going to try an emulate it because on the street it doesn't get you anything except ball out of bounds. So this is one move that may be Harden only for a long time. It's funny to me that nobody really thought of it before because it's so simple. I reckon most are afraid that nothing will get called and they will look like a fool, but it's almost impossible not to call a foul on it as it's so obvious. I do think it's plausible for them to change the rule, but it would be difficult, so I don't think they will. They'd have to say that the first person in a space owns that space as long as they don't initiate contact. But that takes away all jumpshots for the most part. And the NBA isn't having that.
By the letter of the law thats a reach in foul. How do you legislate the difference between that type of reach in foul and a reach in foul where someone slaps your arm while your shooting? People laugh it off at the ymca because in a small group its easier to agree on things that are discretionary. Also refs might not call it at points in thr NBA because they use their discretion and think its BS. But it is near impossible to officially legislate the difference between that reach in foul and other reach in fouls in the rulebook of a billion dollar association. Its like trying to define a chair. Its impossible and completely discretionary. Kinda like that judge said about p*rn "i cant define it, but i know it when i see it"
Rip throughs include reaching in. In fact, that is why kids are taught the move. Moving the ball from one side to the other -- fast -- is a rip through taught to kids for the purpose of protecting the ball with both hands in order to get it to your dribbling or shooting side. It's a foul regardless. Just a matter of whether it's a shooting foul. Here's a rip-through with Kawhi getting caught with his hands in Durants pockets. He actually touches Durant's hips, both of them. There is not enough difference between this defense and what players do to Harden, except Harden is dribbling, and Durant isn't here. According to March 11th, 2013 Play By Play, this was called a Personal Foul vs a Shooting Foul. Durant still went to the line, because they were in the bonus. imso, this is a perfectly fine way to get your shot off. I don't see a difference between what Kawhi is is caught doing here versus cookie jar defenders against Harden, except Harden is dribbling. And I'm fine with that distinction, if that's what the refs use. But I'm not a big fan of saying Durant's motion in that video is not a natural shot, when players move the ball to their shooting hand like that all the time...and Kawhi is touching his hip....in his "shot pocket" as @MrButtocks says.
Kawhi's arm was not in Durant's shot pocket, which is the vertical space from your waist to your head that your arms naturally go through in normal jumpshot. KD could have raised up for a shot in his position and his arms would not have been impeded. The hip falls below the shot pocket, as pictured below. That's why KD did a rip through, swinging his arms to the side to draw contact. As you noted, it used to be called a shooting foul, but no one actually considers that a natural shooting motion. In the second Harden video you linked above, it's less about the dribbling and more that Harden goes straight up and just happens to draw contact on Holiday's arm. Most players won't even raise up for a shot when a defender has their arm in the shot pocket like that, but Harden seems confident that he can draw contact. Both fouls are "caught in the cookie jar" varieties, though.
