Obama Proves He's a Closet Muslim -- Screws Israel with Abstention

Yes, off course.
I am not convinced about the location but like I said, you can't undo history.
But I explained in the previous post why I'm convinced that the Jewish people need to have their own country.
If you can read what I wrote there and then it would be nice to hear your opinion.

 

Should I be asking for the proof five pages in or just accept the absurd hyperbole of a thread title as fact, because, Obama?

 

If the abstention is meaningless then why are the Right and the Israeli lobby ******** a brick over it?

 

I don't think Palestinians have much of a choice ,the majority agreed to '67 borders , out side of Palestinian Territories they face the same fate. Jordanian army only victory came against them, Egyptian can not do a single thing right aside from imprsioning Gasa strip from the south, Assad killed as many in Yarmok refugees camp than what Israeli possibly wish to do, Hezboallah is patrolling the Lebanese borders and they make sure Palestinian stays in their filthy camps .

 

Again, I agree.
The Palastinians here are the ones that the whole Arab world is sacrifing for their fight with Israel.
They have frozen the situation instead of moving forward like every losing side in every war has done.
But still, in my opinion it is Israel obligation to act morally in this situation. By controlling a civilian population with military you are losing credibility and in time, you are no better than our neighbours, even if you are doing it for the security of your own citizens.
I'm a minority in my country.
I think most people here don't realize the conflict the Israelis face here.
That's why calling it apartheid is so wrong. It is wrong doing. For sure. But it is not based on race or some superiority ideology. It is based on security and a (wrong) choice of a sovereign country to protect its citizens from an imminent threat.
I am willing to risk my family by returning to the 67' borders even if I know that it won't stop the terror for my morals and conscious. Because I truly believe that you can't control civilians with military force.
Most people in Israel are still afraid to take that risk.
To be honest, if anyone in this forum will be true with himself and try to put himself in the same situation, I'm sure he could understand the conflict here and understand that it is not a clear cut of what is right and what is wrong to do.

 

It's not a one sided solution nor a one sided problem. Taking and supporting that stance is what never lead to a resolution.

The US tried to have a balanced approach. Your post make it sounds like all they do is support Israel.

 

Israel's dreams of manifest destiny is foolishly ill-conceived.

It has succeeded to create a Jewish homeland but extending that land through the occupied territories is a massive mistake because they risk making Jews a minority and eventually putting themselves in a situation where Israel is run by a Muslim gov't down the road.

If they were smart, they would seek to create a viable Palestinian state that was economically strong - which would provide a secure border, a stable trading partner dependent on their ocean access, and a forever Jewish state.

 

And with that I completely agree.
The misfortune of the situation is the the extreme left and the right are pushing for an impossible one state idea.
[Edit]
Referring to your last statement about 'if they were smart...'. Again that is simplifying or not understanding the situation.
The land behind the 67' borders was always meant to be returned in a future peace process. At the time it was taken as a buffer zone from the dense Israeli population from Jordan and Egypt as a the results of the war.
It was never annexed by the Israeli law as part of the country for a reason.
Israel interests were and are to have a palastian state with its own goverance. Problem is the Palestinians can't decide who are their leaders and never really gave up on claiming the whole land. So you can understand the doubts of the Israelis that are not willing to rip people away from their homes (only Israelis would be moved in any arragment), to have a chaotic nomandsland just a few miles from Tel Aviv and the most dense population area in Israel, and all that while any Palestinian leader is saying out loud that this will not be enough and they want the whole country.
So what you, and I to a certain degree suggesting, is nice and hopeful. And morally the right thing to do. But to say it's smart? It might be a very foolish move as history taught us with Gaza. First thing they did was to bring Hamas and started building rockets and tunnels.
Before any agreement can take place the Palestinians need to get their **** together politically. And understand that they will not get more than the 67' borders. Like it or not.
But until that happens, the Israeli government can not lose hope and/or take advantage of the situation to create reality that will prevent any chance for a future agreement.
Like it was showed in the survey above, a big majority of the Secular Israelis (which are the majority in the country) are against building behind the 67' line because they know it's going to have to be returned one day.
But there are 2 sides for this. Always remember this.

 

The only "one state solution" that would work is if the entire landmass were to be controlled by either the Israelis or the Palestinians with the other group being completely removed one way or the other. We can talk forever about this, but that fact will never change.

 

I did read it. In hindsight, I think a temporary city-state located in either the US or Western Europe would have been best. I think the area in the US between NYC and Philadelphia would have been most ideal. There would be infrastructure in the midst of a booming post war economy in the US and I just think the Jews post WW2 would have been safer here. That's not to say it would be without its problem as the US maybe safer but there's still hate, prejudice, and bigotry.

I would hope after a generation or two people would start moving across the US or back overseas instead of permanently creating this multi-million enclave of Jews. Not sure how that would have played out after the US desegregated. The end game is that there would Jews and Jewish communities living in safety across the US and back in Europe in places of their choosing.

 

not sure it's exactly the case , but if I stole someone home at gunpoint, and he is willing to negotiate taking back a few of his belonging in his own balcony , I would take whatever offer immediately

 

First I must say that the US is the safest place for Jews in the world. And there are more Jews living in the states than in Israel.
However history teaches us that when things get financially bad, in every country since the middle ages. The Jews are the first ones to suffer. And the prejudice against Jews, like it or not is still very well founded in the US.
Jews have been always model citizens in their perspective countries for 2000 years. Always loyal and always trying to blend in, and still, when things got bad, the fingers pointed directly at them.
Christians and Muslims always in a quest for world domination. They have taken over the world countless times, always trying to force others to their own religion- If not, deported or die.
Jews never wanted that. All we want is one country. In this country every other religion is welcome and not persecuted, same laws for everyone. Why is it so hard to accept?
Do you think the Druze are better off living in Syria where they are being murdered for their beliefs? Do the Christian Arabs better off in Lebanon, where they are being slaughtered? Israel is far from perfect. There are many problems, and there is always a conflict by keeping it democratic and Jewish at the same time. But this is the principles that the Jewish states was built on. The last 10 years were horrible. To much extent the chaos in the middle East has brought fear and instability. The right wing politics thrives on those conditions.
I hate that many people lost hope on peace but I do see many young men and especially women that are trying to make peace and dialogue between civilians. Because we are all fed up with the politicians. It can happen and will happen one day, because you can't fight forever. No one can.
What we need is more dialogue. When you are ruling out the right of one country to exist, you are ending any chance of dialogue.
That goes both ways, the Israelis and the Palastinians. We all need to except that we are both here, living side by side, and we are much better off cooperating than fighting.

 

I don't agree with the comparison but I do agree with the bottom line.
You can't wait forever for the other side to be in the ideal condition. At the moment Abas is the only one on the other side that you can start a conversation with, so you have to do it. All I'm trying to show is that it is not a clear cut and the risks that the Israelis will have to take for a very fragile peace are enormous. Our leadership is afraid to take those risks. And I completely disagree with them. I think those are necessary risks that you have to enter to with open eyes.

 

Jordan and Egypt are no longer threats to Israel - which was the original reason for taking the occupied territories supposedly.

Israel saying they want a 2 state solution is b.s. If that were the case they would not be colonizing the west bank with settlements. The goal is to take all the land as Israel sees Jordan as the home of the Palestinians not the west bank. The idea is to take of much of the west bank as possible and hope to push the Palestinians out of the area over time.

Israel has no intention of returning the settlements - 400k people moved to the west bank - that's a colonization and take over, why else would you call it?

 

Damn there are a lot of crybabies on this board: Israel is all grown up now. Israel does not need hand-holding. Time for Israel to leave the nest, spread its wings, and fly like a grown-up creature.

 

Well, the Palastinians had at least two prime ministers in the 90' that offered them exactly that. In both cases it ended up in terror attacks all over Israel.
Since the 2000 Intifada the right wing took over and it sure seems like they are not interested in a 2 state solution. Problem is it's very hard to push the Israeli government to give up the military presence when you have the Gaza case in one hand and the other hand you have ISIS and all that craziness in Syria and Egypt on its borders.
The fact that so many Israelis moved behind the 67' borders is more financially than ideology. You can live 20 minutes drive from the center of Tel Aviv, and in 1/3 the price.
A solution is still possible, but I agree it will be much harder with every year passing.
I am not against pushing the Israeli government in that subject with international pressure. It might move something at least.
That's why I think that there is nothing really wrong with Obama making a statement and it is a little bit funny to see Netanyahu having a fit over it. He's becoming irrelevant and acting like a crazy dictator sending all the ambassadors back and calling urgent nation live TV speech.

 

Really? I guess my entire Jewish family and most of my Jewish friends missed day 1.