Obama Proves He's a Closet Muslim -- Screws Israel with Abstention

What's so special about the '67 borders? Is that everyone's offhand way of admitting that the illegal invasion and seizure of Mandatory Palestine was wrong but not wanting to admit that Israel has its **** together?

 

Four pages and nobody has asked thumbs to address the link posted on the first page about President (H.W.) Bush cutting aid to Israel over settlement expansion (or Reagan attempting to dissuade Menachem Begin from expanding them, too). Closet Muslims, all of them.

I hope you have a Merry Christmas, thumbs. Your side won a close election, but rhetoric like this will do nothing to convince those of us who didn't vote for President-elect Trump that you're truly interested in governing the entire country.

 

Being against settlement building and for a 2-state solution doesn't mean anyone hates Israel. This lie that liberals hate Israel is so disingenuous - I am not surprised people like Bobby are championing that idiocy.

 

Jesus didn't kick anyone out of their homes.

 

All this proves is Obama isn't a Christian fundamentalists who believe in some BS end of days BS that somehow makes Israel existence ok.

 

Depends if you believe in the Jesus of love or the Jesus of hate.

 

ideally , Jews and Palestinians should live in a true secular state alongside , even if its under UN-supervision. realistically , that's not going to be the case , so a two state solution is the alternative


I believe Oslo accord set the roadmap in '93,followed by peace initiative in 2002. the problem was always how it was implemented. I can see your argument of (lack of trust) , which is mutual if that was the case but somehow it worked already with the Jordanian and Egyptians, to the point they're literally an Israeli buffer zone since then even if it worked against the Palestinians.

i'm not optimistic for the future because
I fully understand why Israeli government would be reluctant to move forward in a peace process ,despite
goodwill from lefties and rationalist among Israeli population ,the landslide moves to the hardliners and the Likud like ideology , meanwhile , their most reliable alliance in the West
Anglican right wing pro israel push toward a complete occupation of the holy land for their phase i prophecy. meanwhile , some palestinian will mortgage their future on regional dictators and religious fanatic out of desperation

 

No "country" has ever been created out of nothing for a religious group by partition against the wishes of its actual residents. No "country" has regularly bombed and invaded its neighbors without repercussion. No "country" in the world is allowed to enforce de facto apartheid on illegally occupied land without repercussion. No "country" in the world has ever used calorie counts in an attempt to keep a population on the verge of a humanitarian crisis. Israel is so Nazi that actual Nazis are impressed.

 

I agree on everything you said.
What most people don't understand that when Israel was established it was based on a secular foundation. It was born as a socialist country that was built due to the need of Jewish people to continue living as Jews without being persecuted, linched and systematically exterminated.
It's hard for most people to understand what it feels like to be a Jew. ironically maybe only secular Muslims is the States and in Europe could understand that feeling. It's not about religion or the practice of religion. It's a burden we all carry with us of 2000 years of persecution. My family could never stay more than 1-2 generations in one country. They were always afraid to be who they are, always had to hide their beliefs, or they could not get a job, or being linched when things got bad.
Having a country to us is much more than a historian connection to Israel or some biblical right. It's a safe place in which we can truly be who we are without needing to apologise for it or hide it. The ONLY place in the world for us.
Now unfortunately there were a lot of wrongs done establishing the country (as in every new country being born) and that is horrible. But the past can't be undone. If it could I would still have half of my family that didn't escape Europe in time.
The only way to undo wrongs is to look forward while never forget the past and try to correct the wrongs that are happening now.
Unfortunately because of what is going on in the middle East people are very much afraid to make brave changes.
Like you said, the 67' territories were taken in the war as a buffer zone. Yes the historic places in the old city of Jerusalem, and Hebron, Bethlehem, Jericho are places of much significant to the religious people. But other than Jerusalem, Israel never annexed those areas by law. It was always meant to be returned in a future peace agreement. Egypt got Sini peninsula which was 2.5 times the size of the whole state of Israel for peace. And it was a great achievement. We actually had peace, even if the Egyptian didn't like us, but there were a mutual understanding that a war is not good for both sides, an understanding that you could only do with a country. Unfortunately they did not want Gaza, and the Jordanians did not want to take back the west bank in the peace agreement so it was, and is a nomand's land in terms of governance. A buffer zone for Israel in one hand, and for the Palestinians that lives there it's a nightmare. Most of them dont care about anything we are saying. They want to live in peace and dignity. Majority of them are secular Muslims. Like most of the Israelies. Israel missed a big opportunity in Oslo for peace. The Palestinians missed a huge opportunity in 99' for peace.
Now the problem is that the longer we wait, the more religion is becoming a player in the game. Once Hamas took over, and the Muslim brotherhood are having more power than ever, it is no longer a territory dispute, it's a religious dispute. Once God gets into the picture, we will all suffer. Because you can't logic with God.

The 2 state solution is becoming harder and harder to achieve but we can never give up on it.
Many people in Israel are shocked by the US approach, mainly because no one ever figured out the basics. What are the 'Occupied Land' that you are referring to?
Will the Palestinians accept the 67' borders as their country or will they say: No, we demand the 48' lines.
This is the major issue here. When you are talking between countries you can get into agreements but the chances of it to hold for the long run is a chance you are willing to take.
When you are talking with different leaders, and they are all saying different things, how can you reach a viable agreement.
The instability in the middle East now is making it even more complicated.

I agree that it will be hard to implement and the lack of trust from both sides is the biggest obstacle.
And I also agree that when you look at what is going on in the middle East it looks a bit crazy to give up the 'Buffer Zone' as you call it to have all this craziness just a few miles from the center of Tel Aviv and the major population centers.
But on the other hand it is foolish to think that the Palestinians will give up or forget their wish for self determination as a nation.
In this lose-lose situation, I am willing to have the craziness at my borders with a strong army without a buffer zone then having to control civilian population with military.
In the long run its just not possible to do.

 

Every word on this post is a lie. Very well done.

 

Thank Christ Obama is not a religious fundamentalist. One of his many great qualities as a man.

 

Even "liberals" are overreacting to an abstention from a non-binding resolution.

If you think this buys goodwill with Arabs, you are ignoring history and context and have spent no time understanding where this is situation sits in the minds of Arabs and indeed the rest of the world. The collective response to this in the Arab world is "even on his way out this is the best he could manage after that speech he gave to start his presidency and 8 years of veto after veto". There is some mild amusement with Netenyahu being irritated, but at this point I'm sure many Israelis are sharing that giggle. Many Israelis are tired as hell of that man.

The entire spectrum of democrat and republican view of humanity has shifted so far right that a barely left position is seen as parade worthy. In today's world, voting FOR this resolution is a no-brainer to all but 3-4 countries out of hundreds. There's no clever diplomatic symbolism associated with the abstention, it is either a cowardly or corrupt position. Put things in perspective. Obama knew full well that this abstention will maintain the status quo and have no impact on Bibi's willingness or ability to continue construction. Obama is more concerned with his own legacy at this point, he is thinking about his future book. Even a "FOR" vote here would not change the totality of what he's been a part of.

 

The Palestinian people have a great responsibility to solve this issue. You make it sounds like other external factors will resolve the issue. They also make the solution unattainable so far because of their own actions. No external factors can solve their issue without them taking full responsibility for their own future.

 

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/05/09...-bigger-role-for-obama-in-resolving-conflict/




And in a more recent 2016 survey by the Israeli Democracy Institute, 39% of Israeli Jews said they think that historically over the last 50 years the settlement enterprise has damaged Israeli security (see question 6):

http://www.peaceindex.org/files/Peace_Index_Data_June_2016-Eng.pdf

Who knew so many Israeli Jews were actually closet Muslims?

 

Right?

 

Not every.... I really don't know what would have been the best means post WW2 but what is currently happening is not acceptable and has contributed to instability in the region for decades.

 

Cool. What you say is objectively false, but you're free to believe that a people who have no country (need the UN) can solve this problem independent of the most powerful, intrusive and destructive country in the history of the planet (US acting as mediator, whether Palestinians like it or not) supporting the extremist right wing government encircling them and just claiming land (do not have any sovereignty). This is aside from the fact that Palestinians' own leadership is split in two, one of them being violent thieves, and the other half being corrupt whores >> and those guys totally control every means of living in Palestinian territories.

But go ahead with vague statements like "taking responsibility for their future". Everyone is responsible for what they can control in their future, and everyone's future is affected by external factors too. Some more than others. The Palestinians less than most people on earth. Do a mental exercise. Which people on this planet are in less control of their future than Palestinians? You're going to find that list is full of people who are simply more dominated by external factors. It's people who own their sovereignty and independence - such as yourselves - who are most able to influence their future and in turn the most responsible for the outcomes of their actions. And even then, external factors play some small role.

With that said, Israelis are also not as in control of their destiny as they should be and I am equally critical of that. Their government does not represent their best interests of having a safe, secure future where they can live a normal life.

Finally, Palestinians and to a lesser extent Israelis are constantly living in a state of traumatic and post traumatic stress that makes their emotional reactions more vulnerable to all forces in a way that me and you will never understand. Both sides of leadership are exacerbating this and taking advantage of it to the maximum. It is easy for you to dictate what should be done, but the truth is people in Gaza are constantly in fear of the next mass assault or their next meal or whether they will irritate the dominant Hamas by asking for something.

Now tell me, what does that have to do with my last post? My post was about the role of the US - a country that opposes almost the whole world in vetoing most resolutions which may help Palestinians for decades, provides radically superior support to one side of a negotiation which they insist should remain impartial (genuinely lol'd at this), refuses to allow anyone else to the negotiating table, and objectively has a shocking proportion of their elected officials compromised by a powerful Israeli lobby back home. Due to an internal spat which will not effect the overall geopolitical partnership, the US abstained from a non binding resolution and people are acting like this is a big deal. It will have no effect, nothing will change, the settlement will be built and every Arab and Israeli knows it, and if the abstention would have stopped the settlement from being built the US would have vetoed it.

 

I hope Obama is a closet atheist if anything. We should all hope that future presidents are not religious

 

Well I urge you to find one truth in this post.
These kind of shallow ignorant words are rethoric of hate that prevent any kind of real dialogue from happening.
To those people that automatically deny my country its right to exist, I say: 'Come and get me'.
God knows you tried many times and we're not going anywhere.
You need two sides in order to move forward. I'm the biggest critique of the Israeli government regarding the settlements and avoiding of a real dialogue. But in the other hand, hearing those kind of words from the 'Liberals' just showing me again and again how they are far away from the moral ground they claim to posses. They are instigators of the endless war no less than the Alt right.

 

I don't see much moral ground over there. Jews have a right to exist and be safe but Israel wasn't/isn't the way to do it in my opinion. I have absolutely nothing against the Jews, but don't conflate me not supporting Israel with being anti-Jew.

I am curious, in your hindsight do you think the creation of Israel was the best means forward post WW2?