Zach Lowe about James Harden: "He is the best PG in the League"

Thats not the argument. Here is the claim:

"Great individual player, but isn't a winner.

CP3's style of play is the reason the Clippers haven't won anything with as much talent as they possess."

 

Haters gonna hate. You can make a legit case for CP3 as the best PG of all time. I still have Magic Johnson, but my certainty of that wears with each year that CP3 plays this well. Magic, for reference, never had an individual season as good as CP3 is currently having or had in 2008-9. Magic wasn't able to put up legendary assist percentages until late into his career. Even ESPN underestimates how consistently good CP3 has been. He is flat out better than John Stockton. This is not even in question. Stockton only has longevity on his side. They claim he was a "hell of a defender." Well, other than steals, the numbers don't really show him to be an effective on ball defender. He had elite bigs protecting him (Malone and whatever 7 foot oaf happened to be manning the middle). I can understand Oscar Robertson at 2. Walking triple double should get recognition. But CP3 is flat out a better passer and floor general. Isiah Thomas? Rings or not, ankle game or not - flat out not as good as CP3. But haters gonna hate.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.cgi
^Basketball-reference's statistical model that accounts for role, team success and stats (and is tuned to past MVP winners) has Harden as the runaway MVP leader to this point, with a higher chance to win than any other two guys combined.

 

Not just a claim, that's a fact.

If Houston maintains similar winning % 'til the end of the season, it would be criminal to not hand Harden the MVP trophy.

 

My God... have you ever even watched Stockton play? My guess is that you haven't if that was what you have to say about him. As someone who has actually grew up seeing Stockton and Co play the Rockets repeatedly and seen CP3 since he entered the league. CP3 is good, but Stockton was better. Hell, Kidd was also better. Stockton is a better shooter, passer, and defender (regularly played against much better competition), not to mention incredibly durable and clutch.

 

No, that is an opinion, with no support given, which makes it a bad opinion.

 

Again, never got past 2nd round in the PO with one of the best Cs and PFs as your supporting cast, along with top 10 SG and probably the best sixth man of the last few years in Jamal Crawford. Also, playing for one of the best coaches in the game. I don't care what conference CP3 is in, that team is a straight up championship material. Absolutely no excuse for his team consistently under-performing in the playoffs.

 

Doc Rivers is a crap coach.

 

Crap GM, good coach

 

So lets examine your under-perform narrative with the Clippers:

2012: swept by the Spurs in the second round, after eliminating Memphis. That Spurs team won their last 10 regular season games and swept the first two rounds. A championship level team with 4 future hall of famers on it, with an all time great coach.

2013: Up 2-0 on the Grizzlies, Griffin sprains his ankle, Clippers lose in six.

2014: Eliminates the GSW, the year before their championship run, Loses to OKC in 6, a championship caliber team, OKC was just a better team.

2015: Played great and beat an excellent Spurs team in 7 in the first round but then team loses against Houston. Fair to note Paul was injured in this series.

2016: Lost to POR but they were depleted by injury.

So in summary, they lost to the Spurs, Thunder, Grizzlies (injuries), Rockets (injuries), Portland (injuries) and had wins against Warriors, Spurs, Grizzlies.

So yea, your no excuses mantra, falls short. They had injury issues when they lost a couple times, and managed to beat numerous good teams in the playoffs. They did not under-perform, that is just bad luck.

 

You forgot to mention:

- They were up 3-1 against the Rockets
- They won the first 2 games without CP3
- He came back to play in that same series
- We had a lot more injuries than the Clippers

 

Everyone is familiar with the Hou-Clip series.

 

So why exaggerate CP3's injury and understate our own?

 

I know this is getting off topic because this is a Harden thread, but this CP3 hate is getting freaking insufferable. Some of yall's lack of intelligence is really showing off in this thread. CP3 is absolutely a winner and one of the best point guards of all time whose name can rightfully be said right next to Magic Johnson and John Stockton. This dude is one of the smartest players to enter the game, and a player of very few flaws.

The fact that someone thinks he isn't a winner because he hasn't made it to the conference finals is a terrible assessment. He didn't choke against the Rockets in 2015. In fact in those last 3 games he averaged 26.3 points, 10.3 assists, 2.7 turnovers on 63.2 TS%. So what happened? He was one game from making it to the WCF and becoming a "winner." You can't really explain what happened. They just ended up losing to the Rockets. Does that mean that the Chris Paul isn't a winner anymore because he lost in the 2nd round? Is Chris Paul less of a winner than someone like Carmelo Anthony or Dwight Howard?

List of teams that CP3 has lost to in the playoffs:
2008 San Antonio Spurs in 7 games in the Semi's (Spurs eliminated in WCF)
2009 Denver Nuggets in 5 games in the first (Nuggets eliminated in WCF)
2011 reigning NBA champions Los Angeles Lakers in 6 in the first (Lakers eliminated in Semi's)
2012 San Antonio Spurs in 4 in the Semi's (Spurs eliminated in WCF)
2013 Memphis Grizzlies in 6 in the first (Grizzlies eliminated in WCF)
2014 Oklahoma City Thunder in 6 in the semis (OKC eliminated in WCF)
2015 Houston Rockets in 7 in the semis (Houston eliminated in WCF)
2016 doesn't count. Blazers suck.

I get the idea of "Well, Chris Paul needs to get out of the 2nd round." It's a very valid thing to ask for CP3, but out of all the teams he lost to only the Lakers didn't make it to the conference finals. If a team makes it to the WCF then it must mean they're a good team. It's not like Kevin Garnet being taken out in the first round SEVEN times in a row, and then making it to the WCF ONE time. So, in that logic would KG suddenly become a "winner?" It's flawed logic, it really is. CP3 is a hated player, and I don't really understand why. Because he whines? Or is it because he's a flopper? Because he plays with Blake so all of a sudden he's privileged? Get out of here with that garbage. The hate Chris Paul gets is unfair. Look at his resume, and then say with a straight face that he's a loser. Chris Paul is a really good player. The Clippers are currently 18-7 and CP3 is having a hell of a season. He may not be a NBA champion, but he's still one of the best players in the league much like Kevin Durant.

I hate this idea of having to tear down players in order to prop up ours. I love James Harden, and I've been defending him harder than anyone could but it isn't a slight to the Beard to say CP3 is a better point guard. Just because Harden is averaging 2 more assists it doesn't mean he's a better point guard. Beard is also averaging 3.4 more turnovers as well. But don't get it twisted, I'm not saying CP3 is a better player than Harden because I don't think so this season, but I'm not going to be a dick about it and completely dismiss an argument for it. This whole "never made it to the conference finals" thing is just a microcosm of the "No ringz" argument. It's the reason why KD joined the Warriors or why Lebron joined the Heat and then Cavs again. People define someone's greatness by team accomplishments. and they also diminish someone's greatness by another player's team accomplishments. Then Lebron won 2 ringz, and it became the whole "not better than Kobe cuz Kobe haz 5 ringz" thing when Lebron has absolutely been better than Kobe since 2009. It's stupid ass logic like that is insufferable. If the Clippers make it to the WCF this season the same little twerp who called CP3 a loser will just say, "well, he's still a loser. No finals appearances in his life!" What if CP3 does make it to the finals? "No ringz!!" It's an on going process because sometimes people don't like giving credit when credit is due.

I agree that a CP3-Griffin duo should be enough to make it the conference finals, but don't you think a Kawhi-Aldridge duo should be enough to make it to the conference finals? Or how about Curry-Durant? Should we scrutinize CP3 because the Clippers lose to the Spurs or Warriors this season? What about if he loses to us? We have Harden who a lot of people think is the best player in the NBA. Or the Conley-Gasol led team that is currently 17-8 despite Conley being on a death bed? I can understand blasting the Clippers if they end up losing to the Blazers, and even the Jazz and Thunder but I just named 4 teams that are really good. That's 5 teams together and there are only 2 spots in the WCF. Stop being a dick about it. Chris Paul isn't a loser. His playstyle doesn't generate losing. A player who is 2nd in combined win shares only behind to Lebron James since he's entered the league isn't a loser. A player who is 3rd in combined win shares only behind Lebron and Durant since Curry/Harden entered the league isn't a loser. And don't give me that "lol regular season" talk. Just stop arguing for stupidity. This isn't some agree to disagree thing. Chris Paul is a damn good player whether you like him or not. He's made the Clippers relevant and has taken them to the 2nd round multiple times.

 

Jesus crust, what a bunch of crap.

 

CP3 chocked every time he had a chance to go farther than 2nd round in the playoffs (see my post above). That's strictly on him, not anyone else.

 

I am not exaggerating anything.

Saying he missed two games is to show he came into the series injured.

Besides, Houston was a higher seed, we were supposed to win and we did.

 

Also, Curry was considered the best PG for the last two seasons, even though strictly speaking Chris Paul is the better passer. The best PG label necessarily doesn't mean the best passer, it's just the best player who happens to play the position of PG. So no, CP3 is not even close to the best PG, Harden Westbrook Curry are all ahead of him.

 

Stopped after reading point one.

This is nonsensical biased garbage.