That's funny because your so called eye-test is the most subjective, unreliable, flawed evidence that you can bring up in this discussion. "Oh it seems to me that so-and-so player is a good defender, and you HAVE to agree, because I said so" = eye-test LMAO Let me ask you, what happens when two people disagree on their eye-test results, mr. no stats guy? have you ever thought about that?
finally lol. @And1redux @Vindicator and whoever else just wanted to chime in at the end without even really understanding the true context of what is being discussed
Honestly that's just a blatant lie. OP has provided what like six or seven examples of Beverley not being a positive defender, and all I'm hearing is DRtg this or that. That's just one, and even that we shouldn't dismiss so easily because our team DRtg has pretty much sucked the past 2~3 years ever since Beverley became our regular starter.
OP thinks he's a fraud and we are worse off for having him on the floor. OP has ignored multiple lines of evidence that the stat he is quoting is more complicated than a simple number. OP has an agenda and resorts to ad hom attacks when someone hurts his feelings.
Nope, one of best defenses in 2014-15 when Bev got hurt and only played 56 games. Even when he was on the roster, our defense was BETTER with him off the court rather than on the court. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beverpa01/on-off/2015
I do think Beverley's defense is overrated, does that make him a fraud? maybe, depends on the definition. Anyways, to me heypartner is definitely grasping at straws here with all his mental gymnastics and statistic mumbo-jumbo, and pretty much got destroyed by OP who has more straight-forward, easy to understand reasonable argument. Just my opinion.
No, your calculations are wrong, do it again. But even if we faced more challenging opponents, why is there so large discrepancy in DRtg? Isn't Beverley supposed to be this great defender? shouldn't his presence on defense alone preventing whatever more points we are supposed to give up to those teams? therefore your argument is flawed. At best you're saying Beverley is a net-zero, average defender with negligible defensive impact, which does make him a fraud relative to his reputation.
It's a free country! I think the simple, easy-to-understand argument is usually only right because a broken clock is right twice a day. I think the nuances that have been discussed as to why Beverley may or may not be a bad defender better highlight the many issues that are at play when making such a determination. I think using sensational words like fraud are just to get people to post. I think discussing this further is going to be detrimental to my sanity.
If you wanna talk fraud lets talk about the biggest fraud in nba history. The 2 time fake mvp media made steven curry. Dude is not even top 5 on any team he's ever been on in the nba. The fact he won one unanimously is a joke and completely disrespectful to every player in the nba. Dude is a pg and doesn't even run the fking offense. All he does is run around in circles coming off of illegal screens and chucks up 3's. Terrible player and person
Assuming Beverley's defense is overrated, calling him a fraud is totally justified because defense is the only reason why he is included in our starting line-up. Weren't for his defensive reputation, he wouldn't be starting on any NBA team. Even if Beverley turns out to be a net-zero, average defender (which is the best case scenario IMO), that is still a huge problem for us. We can't afford another mediocre defender on our back court with Harden playing, do you understand? This is me being as critical about Harden's limitations as I am regarding other players' deficiencies. This sh*t is serious, and people should get over whatever homerism or attachment they have to certain players and discuss honestly about these issues.
Occam's razor disagrees with you. Just go back and read heypartner's posts, it sounds pretty reasonable in the beginning but then quickly deteriorates into convoluted word play and manipulating numbers. He lost me from there on.
I think most people agree with you that his defense is generally overrated. I think where you take it overboard is saying that we were better with him hurt in 14-15 (we were definitely NOT better with Terry and Prigioni as our starting PG), that you can take a team level stat and ignore all the other things that go into that stat including other players playing more poorly and playing better teams, and that somehow his inability to be an elite defender again makes him a fraud when he is recovering from knee injury. At his pricetag, I think all Rockets fans should hope that he can recover some of his lateral quickness and become at least an average to above-average defender again. It's clear that Beverley is overall a net positive in these 7 games - if, again, you want to make big claims based on small samples. I just prefer not to have knee-jerk reactions, which is about all you can have if you've come to a conclusion after 7 games on a guy coming off knee surgery.
You are actually trying to apply a problem solving principle/philosophy on an argument about defense in a post predicated on simple defensive metrics that are now largely considered not very useful? That's just foolishness. Let me put things in very simple terms for you then; Morey, NBA coaches, and fellow players all consider Bev a good defender. Are you going to sit there and tell me that you and the OP are both smarter than all of them or that you guys can see things they don't? Morey alone is infinitely smarter than any of us.
Of course Morey does, Bev is his player, what is he supposed to say in public? but who knows what his honest opinion is. And no, there are a lot of experts who disagree with the notion that Beverley is a good defender. If he was, why is his market value so low? A great defender who can average 10 ppg and shoots 40% from three is very rare. That's not how the market judges Beverley to be.
