I'm still amazed that it's Harden's fault that Dwight didn't try. Like...I don't even know how to process that. Did we forget Dwight was getting paid $22 mil a year to play basketball?
What? You are saying that Nash didn't benefit from having good teammates as well? Seriously? Do you know how basketball works? Nash benefits from having good shooters, you can't take any 4 guys and put them around Nash and find any kind of team success. Bell/Barbosa/Diaw are all role players. Diaw has had a good career across multiple teams. Bell and Barbosa are specialist. Channing Frye just had two good seasons in Orlando. Joe Johnson? Really? Well now we have to go through this again. Yes, Joe Johnson FG% dropped not playing for the Suns...because we became the primary option for the Atlanta Hawks. This is basic basketball stuff. On the flip side you realize that Nash also benefits from playing with Joe Johnson? Are you really saying that Nash doesn't benefit from having good players around him? I'm not "Putting words into your mouth." you just quoted that line from my post and said "Because it's not true."
You have a bad habit of putting words in other people's mouths. There's a difference between an equally beneficial relationship and a mutually beneficial relationship where one side benefits more than the other. Do you know how English works?
And those shooters have the best years of their careers playing with Nash. That's not an accident. And? How does that counter anything I said? Where he averaged 7.3 ppg and 5.2 ppg? Yeah, it sounds like he was highly utilized. And what about the year before Nash joined the Suns? Johnson averaged 3.3 3pt attempts per game and shot them at a 30.5% rate. His first year with Nash? 4.5 attempts at a 47.8% rate. Of course Nash benefited from having good teammates. And in that token, Harden benefits from having good teammates. But there's a reason that Nash's teammates have career years while Harden's teammates don't.
Hey mister English major, do you know what "Seems" means? I suppose not, I never put words in your mouth, you just have a bad time understanding context, which leaks into your outlook on basketball. When someone says "It seems you think..." they are making an inference, which I then later clearly said because you aren't clear about anything and continue to go around in circles. This is again, you failing to clarify a statement. Lets look at this back and fourth. "Nash benefits from his teammates as much as they do him. You're not getting that." "Because it's not true." You then finish off. Nowhere above do you say what you just said. If you had just said this then I would have pointed out to you what has Nash done without said teammates? How does Nash get an assist if the guy he's passing to can't hit a shot, how does he have space to create if the defense can leave said shooter? Instead you just talked about how a bunch of role players had their best years playing for a stacked team. Okay. Most NBA fans know how that works. Do you know how basketball works?
Yeah Dwight had down year. He's never been a big man you can really rely on in the post game. But the Rockets mainly Morey killed his spirit last season when they told him it's Harden's team. Basically told him all we need from you is play defense and rebound. He bought into that new game plan at that particular time. This past season when we started off horrid he was thinking he can do a little more offensively to help Harden and this team out. But Morey declined that notion. Thus the reason why he wasn't motivated to do anything else. I've seen plenty of games in which Howard would have his man sealed underneath the rim and Harden and Company wouldn't pass him the ball. That's why his numbers were down. You want good results, then you have keep your big men happy. Even Dmo and Jones productivity with completely astray.
As I've said many times before, Nash's brand of uptempo offense created a lot of easy transition baskets for his teammates. The 2004 Suns had Marion, Joe Johnson, Stoudemire, and Barbosa. They won 29 games. Nash joined them in 2005, and then won 62 games. In 2006, they added Diaw/Bell, lost Joe Johnson, and Stoudemire missed the season; they won 54 games. Out of curiosity, why do you think the Suns were a stacked team?
Who says it's an accident? Ummm...Role players play better alongside star players? This is basic stuff. The Suns had two all-star perennial players. The Rockets have one. He's a role player, this means given the right role and on the right team he shines...otherwise he looks very meh. This is what role players are. They specialize in doing one thing or another and the more you ask of them to do the more they suck. See the Houston Rockets. Well duh, because Nash makes the game easier for him and he makes the game easier for Nash. This is the part you're not getting. You are given sole credit to Nash. Obviously a guys % will be lower if the defense can just lock on to him. This is something everyone knows. All you are saying is that a bunch of good role players had a nice career playing for one of the best teams in the NBA at the time. Duh. Ariza looked like a stud playing for the Lakers. This tends to happen when you play on a great team that has 3 all-stars on it. This is the main thing, you are giving no credit to Shawn Marion or Amare Stoudamire, although your point is to compare 2006 Suns to the 2016 Rockets, the year is irrelevant. The Suns had better players, if the Rockets had two all-stars playing alongside Harden then they would do a lot better than they had. If they had one other all-star even. So wait, you've already said that Harden made Dwight worse so who else are you adding to this list of Rockets players that are being hindered by Harden?
Let's address these notions ONCE AGAIN... 1) "Killed his spirit" By telling him to do what he's good at? Do you know how ridiculous that makes Dwight sound? 2) "Morey declined that notion. Thus the reason why he wasn't motivated to do anything else". Again...Morey tells Dwight they want him to do what he's good at, and Dwight refuses? And insists on doing something he's bad at? And that hurts the team? I ask again...do you know how ridiculous that makes Dwight sound? 3) "You want good results, then you have to keep your big men happy" Yes. The Rockets want good results. The Rockets wanted good results, therefore asked Dwight to do what he's good at (pick and roll). Instead...the Rockets got bad results from Dwight because Dwight did things Dwight is bad at. Fascinating, huh? And yes. You need to keep Dwight happy. So what do the Rockets do? They give Dwight the most post touches in the entire league, a role that he is entirely unqualified for, but they did it anyway. Instead of taking advantage of this, Dwight pouted, noticeably didn't try, and was not effective anyway. And amazingly, despite all of this, there are people that are honestly blaming Harden for Dwight acting unprofessionally and playing basketball badly, despite being the highest paid player on the team by a significant margin. Amazing. Truly.
Now see I asked what Nash has done without the Suns...not what the Suns did without Nash. Okay wait, you realize that the Suns had MDA at that time too? Nash's brand of offense? You mean MDA's right? The same offense that made Jeremy Lin look like an all-star? Are you giving Nash 100% for the entire team's success? Amare was a Sophomore player lol and Marion was never confused to be a franchise player. What is your point? The Cavs had Irving and without Lebron they were a trash team too. Adding Lebron they become champions. If you add Harden to the T'wolves right now they instantly become a contender. How can they not be stacked when they had 3 all-star players? Do you not realize how much that benefits everyone on the team? How easier the game is when you have a lock down 3 and D player like Marion who also ran the court better than most? Then you add on top of that the best PG in the NBA at the time and at least a top 3 PF in the NBA...how is that not stacked? Those other guys were role players, their career's will vary from place to place because they have to be in the right situation to succeed.
Both the 06 Suns and 16 Rockets had one all-star playmaker. Sorry, but no. No one will look at Channing Fry's tenure in Orlando and think to themselves, "those were two good seasons..." I give Nash the majority of the credit. The reason you've lost this argument is b/c we have the benefit of hindsight. Players generally had their best years playing alongside Nash. Nothing you can say will change that. You can try to dissect each player's career in an attempt to marginalize Nash's contributions, but at some point, Occam's razor comes into play. Ariza's best year came with the Wizards. That was the year before he rejoined the Rockets. The year is very relevant. Amare Stoudemire was injured in 2006 and played a total of 3 games. That's why I chose 2006. And regarding all-stars, we had Dwight. He was an all-star every year from 2007 through 2014. He was injured for half of 2015. And he was alienated in 2016. At the very least, Ariza has regressed from his last year in Washington.
Why don't you check MDA's record with and without Nash. That should tell you whose brand of offense it was. I'm not going to attempt to quantify something that can't be quantified. I'm just saying that before Nash, the 2004 Suns won 29 games. After they added Nash in 2005, they won 62 games. And after losing their 2nd best player in 2006, they still managed to win 52 games. Take from that what you will. They added Lebron, Kevin Love, and JR Smith. AKA, their 1st, 3rd, and 4th leading scorers. You keep trying to add Stoudemire into the mix. Very sneaky. That's why I keep emphasizing the 2006 season...to exclude Stoudemire. Isn't it interesting how those "right situations" always seemed to be in Phoenix alongside Nash?
16 Rockets had one All-star and the 06 Suns had two. If you think the only way you can benefit your team is by being a playmaker than you are once again showing your lacking knowledge for this game. Depends on your expectations. If you think he's going to be something he's not when he doesn't have the talent around him to specialize in what he does then no. Oh, I've lost this argument? According to who? You? You have several posters calling you out man and you sit here thinking "Yeah, I've won this argument!" By the way, if you take Amare and Marion away from the Suns do you think Nash wins 2 MVPs and gets the praise he does? You can say the same about Curry, it's harder to win MVP awards on a crappy team. Really? By What metric? And yet still the Suns had Two All-star players.. Whose fault is that? Dwight wasn't an all-star because he wasn't good enough to be one. It's really that simple. WAS an All-star. Dwight WAS an All-star. He was injured for half of 2015 and the Rockets had their best season since the championship years. As you like to say, Coincidence? Harden played those games. So one guy is all you have? Again by what metric? He's never been known as a shooter so hopefully not that.
Do I need to bring out the quotes from Kerr and Nash about whose offense it was again? This fast break full court ball is MDAs thing. You then just ignored the point that it made Lin look like an all-star. Yeah, that they are a stacked team. You are missing the point entirely, they got more talented and thus won more games. Your point of "Well look, the Suns added Nash in 2004 and won more games!" duh. They added more talent and thus won more games. It still doesn't matter because Shawn Marion was an All-NBA player in his own right. Which is why people are telling you your comparison isn't helping your case, because the Rockets don't have that next to Harden. If Nash was the one hurt and Stoudamire and Marion had to carry the team I'm sure they still win 50+ games. Yes and under MDAs fresh new outlook on the NBA with his small ball fast pace offense, alongside Amare Stoudamire and Shawn Marion. Yes, make sure you mention that too.
By many metrics. It was Ariza's best shooting year as a full-time starter, and it's the only year he ever shot 40% from the 3pt line. He averaged the highest rpg of his career, 3rd most apg of his career, 2nd most ppg of his career, and the 2nd most spg of his career. If you're interested in PER, it was his highest PER as a full-time starter and the best TS% of his career. If you don't think 2014 was the best season of Ariza's career, which season do you think was better?
Yes, which probably tells you that he's not much of a shooter. The fact that he's done that once in his career should tell you "Well, maybe I shouldn't blame Harden for his shooting." But I think that was his best year so it's good to see what metrics you've decided that by, at least. Although SPG is a pretty useless stat. The only issue is now though is if you think Harden has made him a worse player or if he just managed to have one standout year in a contract year... I mean his 2nd best shooting year was with the Rockets, soo.... So other then Ariza are there other players you think Harden has made worse?
And Nash had his best years playing in that 7 seconds or less offense, had nothing to do with Nash making the other players better. It was the system, systems for instance that marc jackson used againist us when he coached the warriors were not effective in comparison to the system steve kerr has implemented for the current warriors
