I was preparing to give you a proper response but when this is the first thing I read I know you are either trolling or you have some sort of agenda. This is the first time I have heard someone say "Yes, while it is true Dwight Howard was very efficient in PnR situations, it was Harden's fault that Dwight didn't want to play PnR and it was Harden's fault that Dwight demanded more post ups". This is as dishonest as it can get. Don't know why anyone here should bother debating with you anymore since you cannot discuss anything honestly. You have some classic examples of circular reasoning like claiming: 1. Nash 2006 team had a weaker supporting cast than Harden's 2016 team. 2. Dismiss the better production and efficiency of the 2006 Phoenix Suns supporting cast because Steve Nash made them better and not because they are actually better players 3. Proceed to follow up and claim any better production and efficiency of 2016 Rocket players cannot be attributed to Harden because there is "no benchmark". 4. At this stage, most people will realize the logical inconsistency. If you say Harden's teammates in 2016 are better than Nash's 2006 teammates, you cannot then turn around and say "Harden was not responsible for making his teammates better because there is no benchmark". If you say that, you are admitting that there is no evidence at this stage to determine whether the Rocket players are better/worse because of Harden, and thus the blanket statement - "Harden had a better supporting cast in 2016 than Nash's 2006 supporting cast" does not apply because you are admitting there is no proof yet to determine how they will perform without Harden.
Nash HATES Howard and COULD NOT make him better. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/T2TBz2phCgY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
No argument that Harden is under appreciated, but the reasoning is what I think can be different depending on what viewpoint you are looking at. From a fans standpoint while doing a lot for this team, some fans believe his defense was inconsistent and he held on to the ball for too much of the shot clock. From a media standpoint IMO its much different. James Harden was assigned to be the villain to Stephen Curry being the hero. When Houston flopped with a 41-41 record the NBA decided to really dump on the guy; because even though they lost to the Warriors in the play-offs it was in the wrong round. You may ask why do they view James Harden as a villain, because he is a great player despite playing basketball in the exact opposite way the league wants the game to be played. People may disagree with may comparison, but it's like Joe Budden in hip hop versus uh for example Drake. Hopefully, with the additions and the new coaching staff we can have a better record and he gets his just due, but anything short of a championship and I consider it very doubtful.
Proof is not something you need to provide when you're a member of the Anti-Harden's. As long as your argument is emotionally based with lack of context, you're in the clear!
Wait? Whose career are you talking about now? Amare's career had more to do with injuries, he had a near MVP season when he went to the Knicks. If Amare had healthy knees he would have been a great player no matter what team he played for. Marion was always a great player. Bell, Barbosa? Those Suns teams were stacked with talent man, the only reason they didn't win a championship is because of the Spurs being in the way. You seem to be saying that the Rockets would be better WITHOUT Harden. A crazy argument to make.
if harden made this rockets team worse, which player outside of lebron would have made this exact roster and coaching staff around harden better with a better record? or alot simpler, if you replace harden with nash and make nash start with brewer, ariza, tjones/dmo, and howard and coached my mchale/jbb, what record will the rockets end up with?
James Harden isn't some wizard that can turn crap players into great players...Nash had the talent around him to thrive and vice versa. You take out Nash and you still have a decent team, you take out Harden and you have what?
Raja Bell, Barbosa, and Diaw. I've been consistently clear in this. I haven't said anything remotely close to that. If you think I have, please show me a quote.
Ummm... You are saying that Harden made Dwight worse, you clearly say this. Instead of it being oh I don't know...Dwight not having his athleticism any more and never having a skill set to still be effective later in his career...which is what most people say. You just blame it on Harden. As for the other Sun players you seem to not realize that they were talented players with or without Nash. Which is the entire point.
idk if under appreciated is the right term. he certainly seems well compensated. plenty of folks DO like him, his game and all. i think the dead horse beating about defense is a little overstated, even for his defense. he's not ron artest. on one hand i get it. on another i'm pretty much past it. he does what few can, for that, i'm willing to put more of a defensive burden on the other 4 guys. yes yes, a more consistent baseline effort would be nice. i do think having some of the shooting/offensive burden on other, more capable shoulders is going to help that. seriously though, and i expect disagreement, i don't think this is a league where defense is as important as offense. it is in football. it is in baseball. it is in hockey, soccer, rugby, cricket, shuffleboard and chess. not basketball, it's about putting the ball in the bucket. harden does that so well i think it's kind of silly the level of angst and how much of it is directed at his defense.
Well, yeah. A lot of things will sound dishonest when you fabricate quotes and put words in my mouth. I said that Dwight wanted post shots, and when he didn't get them, his effort noticeably dropped on both ends of the court. Since Harden was the primary ball-handler and playmaker, it was his decision deny post shots to Howard. He knew that Dwight would slack if he didn't get to post up yet continued to deny Howard the ball. That's very different than what you wrote above. Yep, that's true. Except I showed you their (Bell/Diaw/Barbosa) stats when they played with Nash and when they played with other teams. They were pretty telling. What's wrong with that explanation? You chose Beverley who conveniently had no benchmark. It's a legitimate critique of choosing Beverley. It's not logically inconsistent at all. You're simply trying to cherry-pick an example (Beverley) that falls outside the established parameters. Like I've explained many times already, I compared the production of Bell/Barbosa/Diaw when they played with Nash and without him (on different teams). Fortunately, when they played without him, they were all in their athletic primes (so old-age can't be used as an excuse for their decline). Again, I selected teammates who played with Nash and without. And in an attempt to apply the same exercise to Harden's teammates, you picked Beverley, a guy who has played his entire career with Harden. I explained why Beverley was disqualified, and you scream "logical inconsistency!" Honestly, you should be screaming "user error!" I understand why you're stuck on Beverly. The alternative would be Ariza, and he had the best year of his career right before rejoining us. Since then, he's regressed.
Yep. And that's clearly different than saying the Rockets would be better without Harden. I don't recall saying the Suns players weren't talented. Please show me a quote.
....not really? If Howard gets the ball in the post, which he did many times, he can choose to pass or shoot. Thank GOD he didn't choose to shoot more, because he was terrible at post shots. Which brings me to my next point... You criticize Harden (somehow) for giving guys who are struggling to shoot 3's more 3 pointers, even if that's exactly what the offensive philosophy told him to do, yet you criticize Harden for NOT giving Dwight more post shots, even if that's something he struggles with? Which one is it?
Yes really. It's actually a huge difference. I know that Dwight's post shots are a low percentage option, but I'm considering the impact it'll have on the defensive end. A motivated, defensive Dwight is worth a handful of post shots.
It's not, though. Here are the options Dwight has when he gets the ball in the post: shoot, pass, get fouled, turn it over. Are you criticizing Harden for...not telling Dwight to shoot it more? What exactly do you want him to do? So you acknowledge it's a dumb thing to do. OK. So...you're criticizing Harden for Dwight's inherent need to go against his strengths in order to be motivated to play basketball. Strange opinion, my friend. You say Harden "made Dwight worse". I'm still waiting to hear just how he managed to do this, because right now all you're saying is that Harden didn't cater the offense to Dwight doing something that he's actively bad at, which is funny because that's exactly what Harden should have been doing. It's not Harden's fault that Dwight childishly checks himself out of the game mentally.
