I don't think they even watched the Suns back then and the Rockets last year Shawn Marion Boris Diaw Raja Bell Jim Jackson Brian Grant Amar'e Stoudemire Tim Thomas Leandro Barbosa Eddie House James Jones Kurt Thomas vs Howard Ariza Beverly Dmo Brewer Terry Jones Capela Harrel JSmith Lawson
Are you guys trolling me? No one could possibly be this dense. For the last time, we're talking about the 05-06 Suns. Stoudemire played 3 games that season. But please, tell me more about what a superstar he was that season.
If you seriously thought that response would make your argument look any smarter, you are sadly mistaken. Fine, no Stoudamire then, but the rest of everyone's responses are still completely valid. Let's start with Marion. He alone is better than any Rockets teammate Harden has had, Dwight included. Then we have Bell who might not be as good a defender as Ariza, but is far, far better at shooting than anyone we have on our team. Next, they have Diaw who is at least comparable to Ariza on D. Offensively, Ariza has a marginal edge. Next we have Barbosa, who off the bench is still better than any scorer we have on offense not named Harden. Ours would probably be Beasly BTW and the year before that Smith/Brewer. They also had Thomas, who was absolutely solid for them. We have Capela. There was also House and someone else who were great shooters. Point is, 2005-2006, 2006-2007 you are still completely wrong.
The flaw in your argument is that you're failing to consider how much Nash elevated all their games. You act as if their level of production could occur without Nash. I've addressed your points in previous posts.
which super stars or super role players did harden play with last season? Shawn Marion 21.8 12RPG 1.7BPG .81FTA% Raja Bell 14.7 .443P% Boris Diaw 13.3 6.2APG 6.9RPG Leandro Barbosa 13.1 .443P% Tim Thomas 11.0 .433P% 7.8RPG .67FT% James Jones 9.3 Eddie House 9.8 Kurt Thomas 8.6 Nash 17% of teams' total score Dwight Howard 13.7 12RPG 1.6BPG .49FT% Trevor Ariza 12.7 .373P% Marcus Thornton 10.0 Patrick Beverley 9.9 .403P% Ty Lawson 5.8 Terrence Jones 8.7 Corey Brewer 7.2 Clint Capela 7.0 6.4RPG Jason Terry 5.9 Harden 34% of teams' total score - double than that of Nash's share
The flaw in your argument is that you're failing to consider how much Nash elevated all their games. You act as if their level of production could occur without Nash. I've addressed your points in previous posts.
you're saying Ty Lawson elevated back up his game after he left Houston? Same with Dwight? You don't think Harden provided Ariza, Brewer, DMo, and TJones the same passes and open looks that Nash gave his supporting cast? You think Nash elevated Diaw's passing game? Or is it Harden's fault that no one aside from him can make plays for others? You think they have a superior FT shooting team because of Nash and Dwight missing half of his FT attempts is cause by Harden?
The flaw in your argument is that you have no freaking clue what you are talking about. Do you enjoy talking out of your rear end or is looking at simple box scores the extent of your acumen? There exists a world much bigger than simple PPG, TRB, AST, TOV, and % metrics you know? Let's talk about Harden first. It's not his fault when his wings brick open shot after shot after shot. It's not his fault his supposed superstar partner in crime has no post up skills beyond a basic hook shot and the mental size of an atom when it came to making freebies at the line, yet fancied himself a savant down low and pouted away the season when the ball didn't go his way. It is his fault that he got hurt doing who knows what in the offseason, dated a Kardashian, and then showed up out of shape after his offseason success. Hopefully he learned from that. He definitely already dropped Kardashian. Let's talk about the Suns players. Which meaningful players are you saying degraded with your exaggerated perception of Nash raising his players? If you are looking at only the basic box score metrics, I guess you can make an argument for some of them, but when you factor in things in like usage rate, possessions, per36, eFG, ect or actually open your eyes and use your brain, you quickly realize that most remained remarkably consistent. Hell, some even got better. Point is, Nash has had far better teammates. You can have an opinion to the contrary, but it's flat out wrong and stupid.
Why are we arguing about two different teams playing in a totally different Era? Not only that but neither team won a Championship. Mute topic And how about comparing our WCF run to those Suns team with Nash running the point. Crazy how some are using that horrific season to a Suns team that won what 60+ games. Apple to oranges argument
Are these serious questions? Dwight just signed with Atlanta. He hasn't played a single game for them. How can he already have elevated his game? That being said, I do think he'll be better in 2017 than he was in 2016. Nope. Like I've said before, when Ariza/Brewer/Beverley are having trouble making open 3's, Harden's answer is to give them more open 3's. Nash tried to create easy transition opportunities for his struggling shooters. I think that Diaw had his best years in Phoenix, and when he left at the age of 26, his career began a downward trajectory. And yes, Harden shares some of the blame for his teammates' inability to make plays for others. Our team was tailor-made for Harden. In order to mask Harden's defensive flaws, we acquired defensive-minded players in Beverley, Ariza, and Howard. If you need that many defensive specialists, your offensive options become limited.
Nope, it's not. But it's his fault for continually creating open 3's when he knows his 3pt shooters are struggling. Nope, it's not. But it's his fault for denying Howard the ball on offense which in turn limited Howard's effort on defense. You're familiar w/ the Suns 05-06 roster. Which players got better after leaving Phoenix? If that were the case, you'd be able to rebut my arguments with more than general statements.
Some players have shorter primes than others. You're not even making a point here.... Ariza's one great 3P shooting season is an outlier in his career. He's never been a consistently great 3P shooter anywhere close to Raja who did it for numerous seasons. And Raja was a more capable scorer too as I've already stated. It's so apparent you didn't even watch the 06 Sun's.
A 3 and D's job is to hit open 3's. That's their role. If they are struggling doing the one thing they are supposed to do on offense, that will never be on Harden. That you can somehow spin it against Harden is mind blowing honestly. Right, you do realize we are talking about the same player that personnel on every level denied him when he asked? Harden didn't want to give him the ball in the post. The coach didn't want to give him the ball in the post. The GM didn't want him getting the ball in the post. Les after seeing the Dream, definitely didn't want him getting the ball in the post. The fans didn't want him getting the ball in the post. His last team, Lakers, didn't want him getting the ball in the post, including our current coach MDA. You know who else didn't want him getting the ball in the post? Did you forget about your hero, Nash? When the entire world outside of Dwight and Dwight fangirls want him getting the ball in the post, while there are rules to the exception, generally that single person is in the complete wrong. Diaw and Thomas both got better IMO. They may not have necessarily scored more points due to MDA's high paced, offensive system giving inflated offensive points, but they showed improvements in other categories. You can also make legitimate arguments for House in Celtics as well. While not in the same year, Joe Johnson got SIGNIFICANTLY better after parting ways with Nash. Now if you are expecting role players to excel when they exceed their roles, that's just stupid. There is a reason why superstars and stars are so rare.
Without even going into specifics of the individual players and why they're better.... Just the fact that Jones and Brewer saw significant minutes or rotational play makes Harden's cast clearly worse just off that.... LOL... dudes really trying to pretend they have a clue about the players on that Suns team.
So far, you are almost half of the replies in this thread, but you have yet to post anything regarding factual evidence supporting that Nash was actually responsible for his team Over performing. Until you actually address the very valid arguments brought against you, people simply won't take what you say seriously.
Forgot to address your last point. I would if I had confidence in your ability to understand. Honestly, I don't have time to waste giving you hard numbers, because I have a feeling most of it would be lost on you. Was Nash a great player? Yes. However, to act like he had a less talented supporting cast, is just crazy talk. Marion's presence alone makes your entire argument moot. While injuries derailed his career, I would take a healthy Marion over anyone we had last season.
They were still superior players to Harden's teammates despite that... Raja was a quality 3PT shooter prior.... Marion was a an all-star prior to Nash... etc. Matrix is a better player than everyone on our roster last year outside Harden. Raja a better knock down shooter than everyone on our roster last year and much MORE capable offensively than Ariza... Barbosa is an additional playmaker Harden never had and also quality bench production. Just quit with your low ball IQ.
