I for one, expected him to start acting like a professional. You claim to be a smart player - play to your strengths. Weirdly enough, the one year Howard missed half the season and got to watch the team play from the sidelines, he had his best year as a Rocket. Howard himself said, that he watched the team thrive and didn't want to disrupt their rhythm coming back and wanting to fit in. Too bad he didn't try to fit in the rest of his tenure. Again, I don't dislike Howard, he is still a very good player or he can be, if his head is in it. I just think it is sad, that he always says the right things (LAL, HOU, now ATL) and then goes back to being the same player. If he really focused on defense, the pnr on offense and putbacks (and the dirty work on the boards), like say a DeAndre...oh boy he could be SUPER efficient, effective and potent on offense. Much better than what DeAndre currently is for the Clippers - too bad he doesn't realise this and wants to be a type of center that he isn't.
I am going to condense everything because frankly I am not bothered to argue with someone that is committed to arguing in circles. You are basically contradicting your initial point by saying this (not the first time you have contradicted yourself i.e. circular argument). You said Harden's 2016 team was superior to Nash's 2005-2006 team, and you made a point to emphasize that Harden had Dwight who was better than anything Nash had. Now you are basically agreeing that Dwight was pouting and not playing to the team's strengths. Of course there were, but a big factor was playing in a system that was not focused on his strengths like playing with other ball dominant players, which you have also pointed out. So I am glad we are in agreement that a player's performance can change if the system is not utilizing their strengths. This is just plain silly and frankly I do not know how you even come to that sort of conclusion. I am not even going to bother giving you a response on this one, maybe you can reflect on it a bit first to see if what you said made sense. Just a hint for you to get started, role players are called role players for a reason. They don't suddenly put up incredible numbers just because you moved them from a good team to a bad team. You should look up role players and their roles in their respective teams, maybe you could start with someone like Tyson Chandler. Then you should probably not be making statements like "2016 Harden's team was a much better team than 2005-2006 Nash's team". Just because you keep repeating the same points over and over again, whilst ignoring my counter points, does not make your argument true. I have already covered: Diaw (repeating "he was a worse player after phoenix" ad infinitum despite what the stat sheet says does not make it true). Barbosa had injury issues (and of course, you conveniently ignore he had one of his least productive seasons in his last season with Phoenix) Bell is your best argument, but in the season he was traded to Charlotte from Phoenix, he averaged only 10/3/1 in Phoenix (in 22 games only of course), and 13/4/3 subsequently in the 45 games with Charlotte. You know, I have the respect to at least read and thoroughly digest your post before replying. But you have a very good habit of literally ignoring direct answers to your questions. If you go back to the post, you would find an actual answer to what you said here. I will say it again and for the last time since I have no intentions of dragging this debate out any longer. Nash made his teammates better, because his teammates knew how to play with Nash and played their role to perfection. It is without a doubt that playing with Nash helped their players, but it is also dishonest to make the claim that they are significantly worse players without him.
Why do some of you still try and say he was ba in every playoffs since he's been a rocket? The year we went to the WCF he played 17 games and put up 27.5/7.5/6 on 62% TS and almost 40% from 3 point line. He was the 3rd best player in the playoffs that year behind only curry and Lebron who each were in the finals. How was he bad in the playoffs that year? His last season in OKC nobody every brings up that he was the reason they even made the finals. Kd and Russ choked and harden carried them over the Spurs. Coach pop has alluded to this before they could not stop harden and he closed it out. So let's kill harden who was 22 years old coming off the bench for having a bad finals but forgot that he was the reason they were even in the finals, how convienent.
I haven't contradicted myself at all. You seem to think that a player's level is determined solely by how he played during the season. However, for a seasoned veteran like Dwight, we know his baseline in terms of caliber of play. And we know that he underperformed due to chemistry issues and his role on the team. And we know that Harden was directly involved with both of them. In other words, Nash made his teammates better. Harden made Dwight worse. It makes perfect sense. Think about it. Remember when Aaron Brooks averaged nearly 20 ppg for us? Or when Evan Turner averaged 17 ppg for Philly? A better example is Kevin Love when he was in Minnesota. In his last season with the Timberwolves, he averaged 26 ppg and 13 rpg. They missed the playoffs. In the following year with Cleveland, he averaged 16 ppg and 10 rpg. Why not? A benchmark is used to compare a player against himself under different circumstances. It's irrelevant when comparing two different players. I've refuted your counterpoints. I've already addressed Diaw. Putting up the same stats on a far inferior team is a form of regression. Just b/c you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not true. He missed almost half the season in his last year with Phoenix. In the 2005-2006 season (the relevant season in terms of comparing Nash's supporting cast to Harden's 2016 supporting cast), Barbosa played 57 games. In his first year away from Phoenix (2011 in Toronto), he played 58 games. In the following season, he played 64 games. If you're going to play the injury card for 2011 (58 games played) and 2012 (64 games played), why not for 2006 (57 games played)? Is it b/c that would support my assertion that Nash had a weaker supporting cast? What's your point? He averaged 2 fewer points in those 22 games b/c he averaged 2 fewer shots. And his production with Charlotte has the same drawback as Diaw's. Empty stats on a bad team. The trade that sent Diaw/Bell to Charlotte also brought Jason Richardson to Phoenix. After joining Phoenix, Richardson's raw numbers decreased, but his efficiency increased. In fact, the 3 highest TS% of his career came in his 3 years with Phoenix. But, like Bell/Barbosa/Diaw all having the best years of their careers alongside Nash, that's probably just another coincidence... Absolutely. It's just a coincidence that their careers all began a downward trajectory after leaving Nash.
Yeah you lost it with this one... Is this a joke? Harden's teammates were significantly worse in comparison to Nash. Raja Bell, Shawn Marion, STAT, Diaw, Barbosa >>>>>>>> Ariza, past his prime Dwight, Bev, Brewer, Jones/Smith/DMo More garbage ball knowledge exposed.
Nash's teammates in 2006 were much better than Harden's? ROFL... that's like one of the dumbest **** I have ever read on here. Nash had Marion, STAT, Bell, and Diaw with Barbosa coming off the bench as an offensive spark. That is infinitely better than what we had, especially in the playoffs with both D-Mo and Bev out.
Continuing from my earlier post; STAT was a superstar, Marion was a borderline All-Star talent (basically Ariza on steroids), Barbosa was amazing as a 6th man, and bot him and Diaw were better shooters than anyone we have on the team.
I'm just going to say this. STAT willingly ran the pick and roll with Nash amazingly. He also could hit a jumper and his free throws. Marion made the All star game 4 times as a Sun. Name a rotational player during the 2006 Suns that was worse than Corey Brewer or TJ who got significant minutes.
Harden is a great player. But the fairly recent fad of only x number of players have had xx.xx pts, xx.xx assist, xx.xx rebound etc etc in a season are ridiculously useless stats.
HAHAHAHAHA... Prime Marion would be the second best player on the team. Partly due to PT and partly due to him getting fat as hell.... He evolved into a different yet still effective player. Wrong again.... Ariza has more length, but Raja was a great perimeter defender in his own right and he was much more capable offensively... Shooting and finishing. LOL WTF... Bev is a much better defender that's it.... Barbosa was significantly better at everything else.
Horrible analysis... It's almost as if you never watched both play.... Raja was in his prime which is typically when your best ball is played... Ariza isn't. They're both the about aliber defender... Ariza just has more length... His versatility is being overstated. Raja was a more capable scorer and much better shooter... Those numbers you posted are still consistently superior quality shooting over many seasons.. Ariza is very inconsistent in his shooting also... Very hot or cold month to month.
It's not when you take his advanced stats and offensive responsibilities into consideration as well. Unfortunately, that's beyond most members here, especially stupid ones who think our team during the WCF was comparable to the Suns 2006 team.
When Ariza rejoined the Rockets in the 2015 season, he was 29 years old and just finished the best season of his career. When Raja Bell became teammates with Nash, Bell was 29 years old. But please.....tell me more about how Bell was in his prime and Ariza was past his prime.
lol check this video out of Michael Rapaport refer to Bickerstaff as James Harden's "boy". See this is how slick jews are. I dont know about you but that offended me, the thought that Harden wanted a black coach to replace Mchale. This guy is an movie actor who knows nothing about NBA locker rooms, and ESPN brings him on to crap on Harden now if Harden were to tweet "free palestine" or something like that in response.. what do you think would happen here is the video <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/L3GfTrTQ-xk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> I also think if Harden were to shave his beard the hate from the media would stop. Dont ask why, im a conspiracy nut oy vey, look at how angry Michael gets discussing Harden. "HE'S WON NOTHING, HE GOT 2 COACHES FIRED, NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY WITH HIM." Also everytime ive watched sportsnation, it seems like Wiley and Michelle Bradle cant stand each other. This is different from skip and stephen a. smith( who are at least friends off camera)
Rapaport is a fool and a crap actor. Listening him on Bill Simmons podcats was nails on a chalkboard.
I'm not here to argue the Ariza vs bell comparisons but the 06 suns vs the 16 rockets is not debatable. Amare avg 20/10 on 57% shooting and 78% from the line Marion avg 18/10 on 52% shooting and 81% from the line. Barboso avg 18 with 4 assist off the bench Raja bell avg 15 on 43/41/77 shooting with solid D Boris diaw avg 10/4/5 shooting 54% and 33% on threes Give harden a big like amare who can run pick and roll/pop with a Swiss Army knife like Marion and he wins 60 games and that's not factoring in the other three guys who put up 40+ ppg between them. No doubt Nash was great but that Suns team blows any team that harden has ever played on in a rockets uniform. That Suns team was thought by many to be the best team in the whole league and was a legit title contender for those 4 years MDA coached them. Just because they couldn't get past the Spurs doesn't mean they weren't elite. The rockets underachieved this year no doubt about that but they were never as good as many pegged them to be at the beginning of the season but they still should have won 50-55 games and been a top 4 seed.
Yeah I think people forget how stacked the Suns were back then. Stoudamire was an amazing player before injuries slowed him. Marion alone is arguably better than anyone we have besides Harden, last few years' Dwight included IMO. Barbosa stomps Bev in everything save D and considering the current version of Bev, may have actually become comparable. Then you have Diaw and Bell to round out that team, both who are at worst around Ariza's level, with Diaw probably being a bit worse. Point is, that team absolutely curb stomps any team Harden has had, at least on paper.
Oh wow. Just catching up on this thread. Dude really believes last year's Rockets were even remotely near Nash's Suns? I love Clutchfans so much. Never ceases to entertain.
