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Florida Night Club Shooting - at least 20 dead - impact on US elections?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Jun 12, 2016.

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Will this shooting help Trump or Clinton, if it turns out that it was religiously motivated terror?

  1. It will help Trump

    51.0%
  2. It will help Clinton

    7.3%
  3. It will help neither of them

    41.7%
  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Patience Carter was shot in both legs but survived, after being trapped in a bathroom with the shooter, Omar Mateen. She says she heard Mateen call 911 to say he was carrying out the massacre because he wanted the United States to stop bombing "his country." Mateen was born in the United States; his parents are from Afghanistan. Carter gave her account on Tuesday.


    He said, 'Are there any black people in here?' I was too afraid to answer, but there was an African-American male in the stall where most of my body was, majority of my body was, had answered, and he said, 'Yes, there are about six or seven of us.' And the gunman responded back to him saying that, 'You know, I don't have a problem with black people. This is about my country. You guys suffered enough.’ And he just—he made a statement saying that it wasn’t about black people. This isn’t the reason why he was doing this. But through the conversation with 911, he said that the reason why he was doing this is because he wanted America to stop bombing his country."
    Of course the mainstream media will largely play up the gay angle or the emotionally disturbed angle rather than the more political angle suggesting he was pissed at our continual bombing of Afghanistan which was another contributing motive
    .

    http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/..._party_primary_calls_for_inclusion_in_debates
     
  2. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    ^ So this guy is really sensitive about race? Forgetting the fact that he did kill a lot of black people including shooting ones who were wounded already to make sure he killed them and that also most of the victims were Hispanics.

    If this guy was so much concerned about striking a blow against US policies in Afghanistan why target a gay bar on Latino night?
     
  3. craguin

    craguin Member

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    The shooter did not hesitate to fire at the remaining hostages once the BearCat was used by SWAT to knock down the exterior wall:

    Miami Herald - Anatomy of a rampage: the pandemonium inside Pulse nightclub
     
  4. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    So Trump and Clinton are calling for bombing ISIS some more after this attack?
     
  5. AroundTheWorld

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    Brilliant article by a Muslim who hits the nail on the head. This thread is a testament to how leftists and Muslims are in complete denial. And he is absolutely right that this behaviour - and Obama's pathological avoidance of admitting that we are dealing with Islamism here - only lead to dangerous people like Trump owning the topic and stirring hate against Muslims as people, instead of exposing the dangerous elements of the ideology.


    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-are-muslims.html?via=desktop&source=facebook

    From: Maajid Nawaz

    [​IMG]

    Maajid Nawaz is Co-Founder and Chairman of Quilliam – a globally active think tank focusing on matters of Integration, Citizenship & Identity, Religious Freedom, Extremism and Immigration - and Founder of Khudi, a Pakistan based social movement campaigning to entrench democratic culture among the nation’s youth.

    Admit It: These Terrorists Are Muslims
    There’s a lot of special pleading about Orlando from Muslims and liberals. It’s time to do away with that. If not, we give the issue away to Trump.


    LONDON — The atrocious attack in Orlando, Florida, was an act of ISIS-inspired jihadist terrorism that targeted gays. It must concern us all.
    Before any of our assumed multiple identities, we are human beings first and foremost. You don’t have to be black to condemn racism, nor Jewish to condemn anti-Semitism, nor Muslim to condemn anti-Muslim bigotry, and you certainly don’t have to be gay to condemn the evil that just descended upon Orlando.
    A puerile response by some of my fellow Muslims is to ask “why should we apologize for something that has nothing to do with us.” But this entirely misses the point.
    Just as we Muslims expect solidarity from wider society against anti-Muslim bigotry and racism, likewise we must reciprocate solidarity toward victims of Islamist extremism. Just as we encourage others to actively denounce racism wherever they see it, so too must we actively denounce Islamist theocratic views wherever we find them.
    Enough with the special pleading. Enough with the denial. Enough with the obfuscation.
    The killer of Orlando was a homophobic Muslim extremist, inspired by an ideological take on my own religion, Islam. In just the first seven days of this holy month of Ramadan, various jihadists have carried out attacks in Tel Aviv, Baghdad, Damascus, Idlib, Beirut, Orlando, and now Paris.

    This global jihadist insurgency threatens every corner of the world and has killed more Muslims than members any other faith. So why pretend it does not exist? Why shy away from calling it by name?

    So far do many of us liberals go in denying the problem, that we’re happy to stigmatize other vulnerable minorities in the process. “He was not a Muslim, he was nothing but a mad lunatic,” we cry in exasperation. As if those with mental health issues are somehow automatically predisposed to murder, or immune to manipulation and exploitation by cynical Islamists and jihadists.
    Then there’s that other old tactic to try and avoid discussing the Islamist ideology. “He wasn’t from the Muslim community,” we proclaim. “He was acting in isolation, a lone wolf.”
    Apart from the fact that research highlights how incredibly rare it is for jihadists to act in a vacuum, we need look no further than the Orlando attacker Omar Mateen’s father, who praised the Taliban as “warriors” to realize this avoidance tactic for what it is. Clearly Omar Mateen had moved in an atmosphere that glorified jihadist ideology.
    “But it must be foreign policy in Afghanistan,” we naively protest. Albeit better than China’s, Russia’s, Saudi Arabia’s, Iran’s and most other undemocratic countries in the world, yes our foreign and domestic policies have their flaws. But what did gays in the Pulse nightclub have to do with any of that? Or the gays that ISIS regularly throws off the tallest buildings in Syria, for that matter?
    It is time that we liberals took the fabled red pill and accepted reality. Just as this clearly has something to do with outdated gun laws, and just as those laws need reform, this also has something to do with Islam, which also needs reform today. No other stance makes any sense.
    Poll after poll of British Muslims has revealed statistically significant levels of homophobic opinion. A 2009 poll by Gallup found that 0 percent of Britain’s Muslims believed homosexual acts to be morally acceptable. Despite polling methodology, what previous polls have shown us time and again is more of the same. In a 2013 Pew poll Muslims overwhelmingly say that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, including three-quarters or more in 33 of the 36 countries where the question was asked.
    The latest ICM poll from April 2016 asked a slightly different question about whether being gay should be legal. Over half of British Muslims surveyed said they supported making homosexual acts illegal. It did not used to be like this, so what happened?

    Liberals who claim that this has nothing to do with Islam today are being as unhelpful and as ignorant as conservatives who claim that this represents all of Islam. The problem so obviously has something to do with Islam. That something is Islamism, or the desire to impose any version of Islam over any society. Jihadism is the attempt to do so by force. This ideology of Islamism has been rising almost unchecked among Muslims for decades. It is a theocratic ideology, and theocracy should no longer have any place in the world today.
    But it is as if we liberals will stoop to anything to avoid discussing ideology. We will initiate state sanctioned presidential kill lists and launch unaccountable targeted assassinations. Yet, no amount of drone strikes under Obama—at a rate that far exceeds Bush—will ever solve the problem. We cannot shoot our way out of an ideology. We cannot arrest our way out of an insurgency. Yes, law and war have their own place, but they will never solve the problem.
    In the long run, only reducing the local appeal of this ideology will solve the problem. Whereas Islam today requires reform, the Islamist ideology must be intellectually terminated. To do so requires first acknowledging it exists, isolating it from Muslims, devising a strategy to challenge it, and then backing the voices that do.
    As I argued in a TV debate with Fareed Zakaria, the danger of not doing so is twofold. Within the Muslim context, it is a betrayal of those liberal reforming Muslims who risk everything daily. These are feminist Muslims, gay Muslims, ex-Muslims, dissenting liberal and secular Muslim voices, persecuted minority sects among Muslims, the Ismailis, the Ahmedis and the Shia—all these different minorities within the minority of the Muslim community—they are immediately betrayed by our silence.
    By shutting down the conversation about Islamist extremism we deprive them of the lexicon to deploy against those who are attempting to silence their progressive efforts within their own communities. We surrender their identity of Islam to the extremists.

    The second danger is in the non-Muslim context. What happens if we don’t name the Islamist ideology and distinguish it from Islam? We leave a void for the vast majority of Americans—who are unaware of the nuances in this debate—to be filled by Donald Trump and the Populist Right. They will go on to blame all versions of Islam and every Muslim, and their frustration at not being able to talk about the problem will give in to rage, as it has done. By refusing to discuss it, we only increase the hysteria. Like “he who must not be named”—the Voldemort Effect, I call it—we increase the fear.
    So this is my appeal to President Obama, Hillary Clinton, and to all liberals and Muslims, for humanity’s sake let’s stop playing politics with evil. Just as this so obviously has something to do with lax gun laws, it so clearly has something to do with Islam. Hillary Clinton nearly conceded as much after these recent attacks. But liberals must own this debate, not merely appear to be defensively reacting to Trump’s agenda.
    This September will mark 15 years since the 9/11 attacks, and we still haven’t devised a strategy to address Islamist extremism, let alone identified voices who can do so globally. Not al Qaeda, not ISIS, nor any other theocratic jihadist group that may emerge in the future, but a strategy that recognizes we are in the middle of a Cold War against theocracy. If we refuse to isolate, name and shame Islamist extremism, from fear of increasing anti-Muslim bigotry, we only increase anti-Muslim bigotry. If the rise of Trump has not convinced us of this yet, then nothing will.
     
    3 people like this.
  6. Yung-T

    Yung-T Member

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    ^^
    Excellent article.
     
  7. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Excellent article.
     
  8. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Member

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    Does ISIS have preferred targets?
     
  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Of course.

    No, that's not what he is saying. What he is saying is that to them, we're the oppressor, the evil enemy, and they are the small rebel alliance on the side of justice. That's their view - doesn't mean it's our fault but it is possible to understand how the other side views us. It might be smart to understand how that view came to be.
     
  10. OmegaSupreme

    OmegaSupreme Member

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  11. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Good point, the problem isn't just foreign terrorist organizations, it's the ideology of radical Islam as a whole. That ideology can make even otherwise unaffiliated radicals commit terrorist attacks in the name of those foreign terrorist organizations.
     
  12. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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  13. OmegaSupreme

    OmegaSupreme Member

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    or radical anything. this is why it's important to not throw unsubstantiated, non-investigative, nonfactual info pertaining to [insert random terrorist organization here] as gospel. fear mongering that misinforms the general public.
     
  14. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    In this case, it was radical Islam and in this case it was inspired by ISIS. Sure he wasn't actually an ISIS member, but that doesn't really change anything.
     
  15. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    I don't think ISIS requires much to be a "member" other than saying you support them and their ideology. It has a very egalitarian low barrier to entry.
     
  16. OmegaSupreme

    OmegaSupreme Member

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    direct quote where the fbi or cia's investigation has come to that conclusion, please. i'll ignore the rest. say it until you're blue in the face... doesn't make you any less wrong. facts please. i'm a fan of bigtexxx in that regard. facts from those leading the investigation. facts and link(s).

    until then i'll also throw out my opinion of him just as you have. he was a radical arsehole.
     
  17. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    How about the quote from the FBI director that said he was "highly confident that this killer was radicalized"

    It's okay if you want to keep putting your head in the sand on this, but you'll look foolish.
     
  18. Nook

    Nook Member

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    How is this news?
     
  19. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Exactly.... that is the point.

    ISIS puts out lots of propaganda to indoctrinate gullible Muslims and those that are crazy..... why do you seem to get this but others don't?

    I don't know....

    Yes, well concerning Israel and the odd place it is.....

    Abrahamic religions for the win!
     
  20. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    Oddly enough, of the three, Islam (at least by citing the holy books as primary sources) might actually be the most tolerant of homosexuality. The Koran says gay people should be punished but never specifically says how and even mentions that they are forgiven if they repent.

    Leviticus, on the other hand is a bit more specific, prescribing death without a chance of forgiveness. ;)
     

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