Several posters have said they are conflicted on whether to hate the Lannisters or back them...largely due to this season (albeit, starting with the Walk of Shame). I think the writers have done an excellent job with Cersei's story. If she is going mad (which many suspect), it takes a long time to develop that. She has to slowly lose all sense of power and control she once had -- similar to how long it took to convert Theon into Reek, but even harder; since Theon was always weak, and Cersei was always strong. That's been well done, imo.
People are conflicted on whether to root for Cersei because the writers make it very clear that the Sparrow and his men are evil. Even when you start to think he may be a good person they have him crack a devilish smile. The conflicted feelings about House Lannister have nothing to do with good writing, it's just that you are being beaten over the head with how bad religion that suddenly you don't know what to think of Cersei. There is nothing redeemable about her other than the fact that she is a victim of the evil religious zealot.
Sure, it's easy to hate Sparrows as religious zealots, but not so much the High Sparrow. I love the fact he's making Cersei go mad with paranoia and helplessness...while she still gets small enough wins with Zombie Mountain to keep her chin up and hopes alive. imo, if you've always been against the High Sparrow, then you either know GRRM's position on that, or you were always against him from your own take on religious history. We first loved the fact Cersei got stung by the same plot she hatched for Maergary. We loved Olenna undressing Cersei and robbing her of a voice on the Council. Then we were led to a place where Olenna backs Cersei and Jamie with her army. Now Cersei might be going mad, while we were all rooting for Olenna's army to take out the Sparrows with Jaime (in ep 3?), or ZM to have another judgement by combat...but not necessarily win. This isn't just about whether we are for or against the High Sparrow -- which indeed has me going back-n-forth with "moral ambiguity" as well as Tommen. It is about all of King's Landing. Don't we believe Tommen as changed his morals? But I guess you will say, "that's nothing, since history shows how evil religions win by controlling the crown". Tommen changing, Olenna backing Cersie, Maergary's secret plan and Cersei possibly going mad all takes time and character development to provide the viewers with reasons to believe the changes and what comes of them in finales. The writers did not "write out" the necessity to develop that...as you say. It took quite a few episodes....(again, much like it took time to convert Theon into Reek, back in the book-readers' heyday .)
I find religion uninteresting in any story really. Characters motivated by 'god gave me a sign' are boring. Story lines involving people finding religion are incredibly boring. People struggling with morality can quite often people boring. People enjoy GoT for the machinations which High Sparrow does, but the means he does it are uncreative (I talked to them and they saw the light) . That's not intriguing political maneuvering.
So you want him to convince them of religion in the show. I thought you said that was boring. imo, the High Sparrow didn't change Tommen by talking to him about the sanctity of matrimony, a mother's love and saying something offline. First Tommen had to see what his mother went through and what Maergary went through. In fact, Maergary probably played Tommen, too...not just the High Sparrow. Besides, Tommen's offline talks with High Sparrow build suspense...and being offline was necessary for us to feel Cersei's paranoia and sense of loss of influence over her son, when Tommen told her of his meetings with HS. Again, that all takes many episodes to become believable that the King changed his morals. It is well done. as an aside, regarding your comment "I find religion uninteresting in any story really," did you think Sean Penn's change in character due to the works of a nun in Dead Man Walking uninteresting?
Agree with heyp. I think the story does a great job creating a murky line between good and bad -- perfect example being Cersei. An evil woman who has a mutant bodyguard that follows her and follows her orders -- and yet we feel almost sorry for her. The show makes King Tommen seem like he's been brainwashed by the High Sparrow -- but really what has he done? -He's taken a stance to align his rule with the religion (no big deal) -He's removed his mother's influence from his inner circle (smart considering she was trying to rule in his place) -He's removed trial by combat and denounced it as an outdated measure for the crooked to get out of their punishments (100% correct) Tommen, by all measures, has been fair to the people and rule of law. And yet I would think several members of the GOT audience dislike him because they feel he's being influenced by the high sparrow. I could also see the viewers turning on Sansa if she becomes dark and ruthless -- I've gotten that vibe from her this season, especially with the dark clothing she wears. She's been through a lot and it wouldn't be a surprise to me if that made her numb to her once sympathetic nature.
I think most people complain because the show doesn't draw on their conclusions. I do agree that there are some things that have changed; the pacing, the quality of dialogue, the attention to certain details of the story, but overall I think the quality of the show is in tact.
The dialog has been the only thing that has suffered due to the lack of source material. The other is the quick movement of people from one place to another although I mark that up to not knowing how much time has really passed between scenes. Most of all I'm looking forward to the final 2 episodes being awesome!
This. The last episode really took the wind out of quite a few fan theories. I thought this season has been great as it sets up the last act.
I'm actually enjoying this season more than the last 1 or 2 seasons. Being a book-reader, seeing where the show has gone off-message and been the worse for it was driving me crazy. Now, being mostly out of book material, that doesn't bother me too much anymore. It's still not as good as the first couple of seasons, and I agree the dialogue, plot complexity, and overall tightness have taken a hit. But it's not in my face so much. There's a funny effect of the pacing. Knowing that they have a heckuva lot of plot to get through in not enough time, I can kinda forgive them for taking shortcuts that create plot holes. But, I now find that when they slow down to do a little character development or add some color, it makes me anxious for the minutes they're 'wasting.' In regular storytelling, they don't do enough of that. I really love the High Sparrow and enjoy every scene he's in. He's one of those villains whose villainy I really enjoy. Imo, I think he does a great job of being a very reasonable, humble, devout man who nevertheless orders his church to do terrible things without it feeling unrealistic. I think the actor does a great job with the character.
This High Sparrow stuff makes me wish Joffrey was still around. He was cruel but at least he ran a tight ship.
The story is obviously based around Cersei's arc. Nothing changes with Cersei if the people around her don't provoke her in different ways. Cersei is very much a representation of a high ranking politician who isn't afraid of using whatever means necessary to get their way. Even using religion falsely as a means to an end. Its a very interesting story to me. I know alot of people just want in your face entertainment and the Cersei storyline since season 1 has been more subtle. Last season and this season have Cersei meeting up with an uncontrollable political force... maybe the only political force that is truly uncontrollable in religious fanaticism. Even superior military power (the zombie mountain) can't just walk in the room and beat it with brute strength. Its more complex than that. We see it in the middle east today as we speak where religion is used to control land, money, and power. Without getting too political here, are we going to be foolish enough to believe that Trump isn't using the Christian community to get votes? Are we that naive (I know its not fair to compare the Christian community to the Sparrows or a perverted version of a middle eastern religion). Those people in power who use it for whatever reason will ultimately get their a#$'es blown up. At least thats the cynical moral of the story that our writers (GRRM especially) are likely going for. In the crazy world we live in today, I can't believe how this story arc, the two complex power hungry central characters (High Sparrow & Cersei), and the two really really great actors playing them can be boring to watch. Unless you just watch the show for "t*** and dragons" which I guess some do.
As viewers we've seen that there are gods or a singular God in the GoT universe. We've witnessed actual resurrections, dragons emerging after extinction, black magic and a variety of different mystical figures whose presence can only be explained by something supernatural. Knowing all that I'd be inclined to be religious too.
I see why you'd think that, but think a few more steps ahead and look at the sparrow's end game: power. Tommen handed the faith the tools to have a trial with their own priests, versus a trial by combat! This was his mother's chance to get out of her charges. What are the charge? Adultery and regicide. If they find her guilty of banging her family and other men, they could easily say Tommen is not a legitimate heir to the king and thus install their own ruler. Tommen is not old enough to see that the high sparrow is a master chess player and is being taken for a ride.
God? OR someone playing the part Wizard of Oz style? We don't know the extent of Bran's powers and there is the possibility of things happening the Ashai that we don't see...
How is it clear they are evil? Is it evil to want the laws of the religion to be applied to the rich and not just the poor? It's not like they are installing a new religion. The religion was already there, but they want the laws to apply to the rich too (convincing Tomen to end Trial by combat for example). Who are you rooting for? The Lannisters? Need I remind you they are not even close to being good guys and do anything to further their agenda. I see why people think the faith is bad... they are judging by modern standards, but think about the world they live in and in those times. Who are commoners better off with? These people have seen wars and rich nobles getting away with everything they couldn't. They want justice, and in this case, it's a religious type. Yes, today in this world, we know how bad religious zealotry is, but these are medieval type people and they are not in a just society as it is. So really, it's not a 100 percent evil. I'm sure there are good people, and yes the Sparrow doesn't seem like he is good, but does him trying to take power make him 100 percent evil? Maybe he justifies it somehow, the same was Cersie justifies her evil actions. This video explores the idea somewhat. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EiNIhnOT1jk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
