Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Frank Vogel may be available... (UPDATE: Vogel out in Indiana)

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Snow Villiers, May 1, 2016.

Tags:

Page 15 of 17

justtxyank Member

Joined:

Jul 7, 2005

Messages:

42,898

Likes Received:

39,875

Honestly, reading the things Larry Bird has said are baffling to me.

"Good coaches move on after 3 years"

WTF?

You guys think Morey doesn't value coaching enough? Bird seems to value it about as little as possible lol.

#281 justtxyank, May 5, 2016

colt45nyc Rookie

Joined:

Jan 26, 2015

Messages:

1,416

Likes Received:

33

Vogel is my Choice...JVG 2.0 no....Vogel is younger and now have something to prove and he had coached another all star in Paul George so Harden may give him some respect.

#282 colt45nyc, May 5, 2016
Deuce Context & Nuance

Joined:

Aug 1, 2001

Messages:

26,598

Likes Received:

35,723

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">On Frank Vogel, stunningly out in Indiana: <a href="https://t.co/LWkVS1GVwe">https://t.co/LWkVS1GVwe</a></p>— Zach Lowe (@ZachLowe_NBA) <a href="https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/status/728281190403321856">May 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#283 Deuce, May 5, 2016
Deuce Context & Nuance

Joined:

Aug 1, 2001

Messages:

26,598

Likes Received:

35,723

anchel said: ↑

Good article on Vogel:

http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...s-had-un-learn-lot-what-he-believes/83502024/
Click to expand...

That's a really great article! Great find. I think everyone should read it.
The "adaptability" aspect it talks about was very interesting. And the relationship he has with his players and coaches.

#284 Deuce, May 5, 2016
craguin Member

Joined:

Aug 20, 2002

Messages:

1,899

Likes Received:

1,828

LOL - this sounds familiar; Vogel would feel right at home here:

Vogel has changed the starting lineup five times, all at power forward, including twice in the past month.
Click to expand...

Deuce said: ↑

That's a really great article! Great find. I think everyone should read it.
The "adaptability" aspect it talks about was very interesting. And the relationship he has with his players and coaches.
Click to expand...

anchel said: ↑

Good article on Vogel:

http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...s-had-un-learn-lot-what-he-believes/83502024/
Click to expand...

#285 craguin, May 5, 2016

1 person likes this.
count_dough-ku Member

Joined:

May 19, 2002

Messages:

18,209

Likes Received:

10,211

craguin said: ↑

LOL - this sounds familiar; Vogel would feel right at home here:
Click to expand...

Lineup changes aren't the worst thing in the world. Last time I checked, McHale switching to Smith over Jones turned around the Clippers series. Rudy T went to a Dream-Horry-Elie starting frontcourt in Game 5 vs the Spurs in 1995 and the Rockets never lost again in the postseason that year. Kerr changed his lineup in the Finals last year when they found themselves down 2-1 to the shorthanded Cavs and won the next 3 games(and the title).

#286 count_dough-ku, May 5, 2016
hakeemthagreat Member

Joined:

Oct 31, 2014

Messages:

6,334

Likes Received:

4,349

Bird fired Vogel because he wanted to score more, and you think our offense will be in good shape with this guy? Expect to see more Brewer 3's next year with Vogel

#287 hakeemthagreat, May 5, 2016

Deuce Context & Nuance

Joined:

Aug 1, 2001

Messages:

26,598

Likes Received:

35,723

Rockets get offensive based coach: Rockets fans scream, what about the defense? team was horrible, a turnstile, no defensive rotations, rebounds or closing out on shooters.

Rockets get defensive based coach: Rockets fans scream, offensive is stagnant, more ISO ball and misses. Everyone standing around

Folks, Pop ain't walking through that door. So get the coach that can solve SOME of the problems and one that is ADAPTABLE to learn and fix the others. Communicate the personnel shortfalls to your GM and have him get players that fit.

#288 Deuce, May 5, 2016

1 person likes this.
RasaqBoi Member

Joined:

Nov 12, 2007

Messages:

17,079

Likes Received:

20,707

Vogel had Nate McMillan & other good assistants. That is like having 2 head coaches. Assistants are very important (ask the Warriors championship team last year)

#289 RasaqBoi, May 5, 2016
Deuce Context & Nuance

Joined:

Aug 1, 2001

Messages:

26,598

Likes Received:

35,723

RasaqBoi said: ↑

Vogel had Nate McMillan & other good assistants. That is like having 2 head coaches. Assistants are very important (ask the Warriors championship team last year)
Click to expand...

100% on board with getting good assistants. Warriors is a perfect example with Ron Adams.

I agree, not skimping on assistants is important. Especially if we are beating the drum for a culture change.

#290 Deuce, May 5, 2016
Deuce Context & Nuance

Joined:

Aug 1, 2001

Messages:

26,598

Likes Received:

35,723

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="de" dir="ltr">Frank Vogel statement <a href="https://t.co/7eiWnnHL4B">pic.twitter.com/7eiWnnHL4B</a></p>— Candace Buckner (@CandaceDBuckner) <a href="https://twitter.com/CandaceDBuckner/status/728313267819446272">May 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#291 Deuce, May 5, 2016
Asian Sensation Member

Joined:

Oct 29, 1999

Messages:

18,286

Likes Received:

7,445

Sign him. Now!!!

#292 Asian Sensation, May 5, 2016
zeeshan2 Member

Joined:

Feb 20, 2013

Messages:

55,747

Likes Received:

65,953

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">VERY early but here's a surprising list of names I'm hearing of possible <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pacers?src=hash">#Pacers</a> candidates: D'Antoni, Jackson, Shaw, Wittman, Woodson.</p>— Candace Buckner (@CandaceDBuckner) <a href="https://twitter.com/CandaceDBuckner/status/728315835522093056">May 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#293 zeeshan2, May 5, 2016

RasaqBoi Member

Joined:

Nov 12, 2007

Messages:

17,079

Likes Received:

20,707

zeeshan2 said: ↑

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">VERY early but here's a surprising list of names I'm hearing of possible <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pacers?src=hash">#Pacers</a> candidates: D'Antoni, Jackson, Shaw, Wittman, Woodson.</p>— Candace Buckner (@CandaceDBuckner) <a href="https://twitter.com/CandaceDBuckner/status/728315835522093056">May 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Click to expand...

It will be Mark Jackson. (Fan Fav... offensive driven) - Ppl in Indiana will like that move.

#294 RasaqBoi, May 5, 2016
Deuce Context & Nuance

Joined:

Aug 1, 2001

Messages:

26,598

Likes Received:

35,723

zeeshan2 said: ↑

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">VERY early but here's a surprising list of names I'm hearing of possible <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pacers?src=hash">#Pacers</a> candidates: D'Antoni, Jackson, Shaw, Wittman, Woodson.</p>— Candace Buckner (@CandaceDBuckner) <a href="https://twitter.com/CandaceDBuckner/status/728315835522093056">May 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Click to expand...

If those were the choices that Morey was looking at (instead of Vogel & JVG) how would you feel?

#295 Deuce, May 5, 2016
Deuce Context & Nuance

Joined:

Aug 1, 2001

Messages:

26,598

Likes Received:

35,723

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Frank Vogel falls victim to Larry Bird's warped thinking, <a href="https://twitter.com/GreggDoyelStar">@GreggDoyelStar</a> writes: <a href="https://t.co/vXRdiLOt6T">https://t.co/vXRdiLOt6T</a> <a href="https://t.co/YhUr18hASm">pic.twitter.com/YhUr18hASm</a></p>— USA TODAY Sports (@USATODAYsports) <a href="https://twitter.com/USATODAYsports/status/728315428703997953">May 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#296 Deuce, May 5, 2016
bmd Member

Joined:

Feb 16, 2012

Messages:

7,749

Likes Received:

3,531

RasaqBoi said: ↑

It will be Mark Jackson. (Fan Fav... offensive driven) - Ppl in Indiana will like that move.
Click to expand...

Mark Jackson is a defensive-minded coach...

#297 bmd, May 5, 2016
Deuce Context & Nuance

Joined:

Aug 1, 2001

Messages:

26,598

Likes Received:

35,723

Article that is not flattering on Vogel

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/new...gel-pacers-coach-small-ball-warriors-playoffs

Up next for Pacers: Small-ball coach not afraid to ruffle player feathers

Larry Bird is looking for a new coach who will have the Pacers play small and carry a big stick.

On the first score, Indiana’s team president reiterated Thursday, when he announced Frank Vogel would not be returning as head coach, that Vogel’s offensive system just didn’t cut it in today’s NBA. Seeing the Pacers move up one place in offensive efficiency, from 24th last season to 23rd this season, when he was operating under an edict to move the offense into the 21st century, told Bird that he needed to make a change.

MORE: Seven potential candidats for Pacers | What if Durant went to Spurs?

“I don’t know about losing the locker room — I wouldn’t go that far,’’ Bird said about Vogel, whose contract was not renewed after 5½ seasons as head coach. “I just came to the conclusion that it was necessary for these guys to hear a new voice.’’

Here’s what Bird didn’t say about the new voice, but what became crystal clear to the NBA legend and even some players as the Pacers lost in the first round to the Raptors after finishing seventh in the East: The new coach’s voice will need to have an edge and he has to hold the players responsible for their mistakes.

That’s the big stick part.

Vogel’s downfall, according to one NBA insider with knowledge of the team’s locker room dynamics, was that he always bent over backwards to be nice to his players and never demanded accountability when they messed up.

“Frank never wanted to hurt anyone’s feelings,’’ the person said. “But Larry knows, and some of the players also know, that there should be consequences to your actions when you do something wrong. When you take a bad shot or don’t do what’s expected of you, then there has to be a consequence. Like getting pulled out of the game. But with Frank there were never any consequences when you did something wrong. He never had those because he felt it would hurt guys’ confidence. He always was looking to keep guys happy.’’

Vogel got away with that style of coaching when he had David West controlling the locker room and the Pacers went to the Eastern Conference finals. But once West left for San Antonio and the Pacers revamped their roster, the lack of accountability was telling.

In the playoffs the 45-win Pacers had a chance to knock off a vulnerable 56-win Raptors team that was primed for another first-round exit, with Kyle Lowry and DeMar DeRozan underperforming again in the postseason. In fact, the Pacers had a golden chance to win Game 5 in Toronto and go up 3-2. They controlled the game through three quarters, as Paul George again showed he was the best player on the court, scoring 37 points in the first 36 minutes.

DECOURCY: Bird felt Vogel could do better

But then Vogel stuck too long with his reserves at the start of the fourth quarter, George scored only two points over the final 7:00 once he was re-inserted and the Pacers were done. Vogel never embraced Bird’s plans to play small and that’s when Bird knew he had to make a change that, he admitted Thursday, he had first thought about back at the All-Star break.

“I know it’s not 100 percent a popular move,’’ he said.

It won’t be because while Bird sees this roster as being better than it showed at the offensive end, he might just be over-rating his talent.

Then he talked about finding a new coach who can “keep ‘em mentally focused. I’ll be looking at someone who motivates and leads and gets the respect of the players.’’

Bird’s next coach needs to be able to get Monta Ellis to change, or he will have to reinstate George Hill as the primary playmaker after the veteran spent most of the season playing off the ball. Too many times in the regular season Vogel put up with Ellis controlling the ball deep into the shot clock, then passing off only because he couldn’t get his shot. That rubbed some the wrong way.

“Frank allowed Monta to walk all over him,’’ the NBA insider said.

In the players’ exit interviews earlier this week, Bird and general manager Kevin Pritchard basically told everyone that Vogel was out, without openly saying it. They told players that next season they want to play more up-tempo, score more, use fewer sets and play more like Golden State, with an emphasis on more ball movement and teamwork.

MORE: SN's latest NBA Mock Draft

So who will get Ellis, and even George, who has sticky fingers at times, to play the Warrior way, while also carrying the big stick? It’s not going to be easy.

Nobody can coach speed ball better than Mike D’Antoni, the Sixers assistant who has a relationship with Donnie Walsh. The Pacers’ long-time executive hired D’Antoni to coach the Knicks in New York in 2010. But D’Antoni is well known for not holding anyone accountable.

Bird spoke highly of Mark Jackson, who started at point guard for the Pacers during their 2000 NBA Finals run with Bird as coach. “I think he did excellent job,” Bird said in a brief endorsement at the end of his news conference. “He helped Golden State get to where they’re at today.’’

Bird probably will look at Spurs assistant Ettore Messina, who was reported to be high on the Lakers’ list if Luke Walton had turned down their head coaching job. Messina has been a highly successful head coach overseas and has been mentioned for NBA head coaching positions in recent seasons. According to one Western Conference GM, “He’s got some hard-ass in him and he can teach an up-tempo offense. The only concern is how he’d relate to stars as a head coach.’’

On that last point, the Pacers have only one: Paul George. So while Bird wants the new coach to play more like Golden State, his roster is a long way from what they have out in Oakland.
Click to expand...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Larry Bird wants his next coach to play small, hold players accountable and be a hard a**. It's in <a href="https://twitter.com/sn_nba">@sn_nba</a>. <a href="https://t.co/hNA0lriqHO">https://t.co/hNA0lriqHO</a>?ssr=true</p>— Mitch Lawrence (@Mitch_Lawrence) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mitch_Lawrence/status/728331700586094596">May 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

#298 Deuce, May 5, 2016
Last edited: May 5, 2016

LabMouse Member

Joined:

Jun 27, 2008

Messages:

3,662

Likes Received:

251

I will quit the rockets team if Morey hires D'Antoni.

Deuce said: ↑

If those were the choices that Morey was looking at (instead of Vogel & JVG) how would you feel?
Click to expand...

#299 LabMouse, May 5, 2016
Newlin Member

Joined:

May 22, 2015

Messages:

8,808

Likes Received:

11,194

Deuce said: ↑

Article that is not flattering on Vogel

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/new...gel-pacers-coach-small-ball-warriors-playoffs

Up next for Pacers: Small-ball coach not afraid to ruffle player feathers
Click to expand...

Great. So, Vogel is a nice guy that's afraid of hurting a players feelings.

I don't think McHale was the big softie that people thought he was. I think Harden got tired of hearing McHale ask him to play the right way, so Harden just stopped listening.

Not sure Vogel is the guy that can get through to Harden, but I'm willing to give him a chance.

#300 Newlin, May 5, 2016

(You must log in or sign up to post here.)

Page 15 of 17

Share This Page