Voter ID laws appear to be working to suppress Democrat votes

And again, I'm fine with people who can't prove who they are with a government ID not being allowed to vote. If people want to vote, they'll get an ID. If they can't prove legal status or residency well enough to get an ID.....well, maybe they shouldn't be voting in the first place.

If it's not important to them, then there's nothing that says they have to exercise their right, just like there is nothing saying you have to exercise your other rights.

That said, since I'm sure you'd be on board with requiring ID to purchase a firearm, which is a constitutional right, I don't see a reason why you shouldn't have to show ID for voting either. It just doesn't make sense in a modern world to go on faith rather than checking ID. You won't trust that someone is who they say they are enough to let them on an airplane, or to serve on a jury, but you'll take them at their word when it comes to helping pick the government. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

 

This is government getting in people live and preventing them to vote. Aren't you against government interfering in people live?

Anyway, I think it's clear from your posting here that you are fine that voting is for certain people and not for other. That's your position and it's one that is against the spirit of the Constitution.

 

I'd be perfectly OK with Voter ID is the ID were both free and easy for any citizen to acquire. That isn't the case, however, and in many places passing Voter ID, they are also passing laws making that ID more difficult to get, especially for poor people.

 

Just as an FYI, there are states (I live in one) where NO ID is required. You literally register, show up to vote and tell them your name and address and as long as you're on the list, you can vote.

The Republicans here have repeatedly funded attempts to prove that this open system leads to massive voter fraud. Except none of that has ever been found despite repeated attempts.

Hell I lived in North Dakota at one time which had no ID requirement and no registration requirement. If you didnt have an ID, you could bring someone to vouch for you or sign an affadavit saying that you are eligible to vote. They've since implemented voter ID but like in other states, no one could prove any fraud was occurring. They still dont have voter registration though.

 

When they don't have any record or information how they heck could they "prove" anything? If you don't ask me for my ID how can you prove I'm not me?

You can't

 

Right but here's the thing. No one's lying about who they are. This is all hypothetical. If anyone is commiting voter fraud, they would do it via vote by mail ballots. In fact, the only major cases of voter fraud that have ever been found involved people falsely ordering absentee ballots. And guess what, none of these voter ID bills do anything about that.

Instead, these laws regulate a voting format with no record of systemic voter fraud.

Oh and the state I live in had the highest voter turnout in the US in 2012. Compare that to the garbage turnout in Texas. Making it easier to vote means more people vote. That's a good thing if you care about democracy.

 

What your not understanding is that nobody knows. The only reason they know about the absentee ballots is because there is a paper trail to find them. If Susie shows up at the polls and says she is granny Susie because granny was sick and couldn't make it, nobody would ever know. There is no way to track something that is not being tracked.

 

No they've funded studies (both government and news organizations) on this. The Republicans put a voter ID ballot referendum here in 2012. There was a lot of attention on voter ID here 4 years ago. Believe me this debate was beaten to death.

Also if Susie wants to impersonate her grandmother, there's a 99% chance she ordered a ballot via mail instead of going to the polls. Going to the polls requires living in the same area as grandma and then going to the correct polling location. And again, voter ID laws dont fix this scenario.

You are designing a solution without actually finding a problem. Simply saying "we dont know" is not a compelling reason to make it harder to vote.

 

Yes let's compare the statistics of gun violence compared to voter fraud. If voter fraud was any problem at all (like gun violence is) then ID is necessary. Think deeper, no issue is this simple.

 

I would love to know how these "studies" determine anything without breaking voter confidentiality.

We will just have to disagree, I think it is a fair requirement to show proof of who you are before you vote and I also think it is just a matter of time before this is the law of the land. FWIW I don't want to make it harder to vote, I want to have some level of confidence that the votes that are cast are as accurate as possible.

The system that we have today was fine in a day and age when everyone knew everyone else. That is simply not the case today and it is way too easy to provide ID to anyone in this country to not make ID for voting a requirement.

 

Fair enough. Its clear that you don't have enough confidence in the integrity of the voting process at the moment. I would caution that the laws on the books should do nothing to inspire confidence in the integrity of the system. No state has rules on voter identification for absentee ballots which is the only form of voting that has actually had any level of proven voter fraud.

I personally do not share your fear of fraud in the current system so I'm quite comfortable with the ease of voting where I live. But I do understand your concern.

 

It's really not the government getting in peoples lives or preventing them from voting. ID's are super cheap, easy to get, and they last a long time. Given that not everyone in the country has the right to vote, it's not asking too much to have people prove they are who they say they are in order to engage in one of the most important parts of being a US citizen.

In no way is that against the Constitution, or even the spirit of the Constitution, but I wouldn't expect everyone to realize that on this board given that it leans so far to the left.

That's a typical leftist ideology, they want things to be "free" even though they aren't ever really "free". ID's are cheap and easy to get, they cost something so as to cover the costs of making and distributing them. I'm sure you'd rather some other type of tax in order to pay for them, but that is a less efficient way of doing things and is a "big government" solution, which is exactly contrary to your alleged Libertarian ideology. Anyway, there is no scenario where it would be "free".

As to being easier to get, there's no way they can be easier to get than they already are without forcing the state to increase the price to cover the costs or going to methods which would be less secure and would make it easier to fraudulently acquire ID cards, which defeats the purpose of the whole thing.

 

You ignored data. Millions of people are impacted by the new laws. They are getting in people lives.

When it impact millions of people to vote, it's against the spirit of the Constitution.

And let's not kid yourself. It's well known, has been admitted, that these laws are designed to suppress certain group of voters. Fraud is just an excuse.

Anyway, I don't care much for it. The next generation or so will adopt. But I'm generally against any government intervention into people lives with no benefits. I'm especially against government intervention for the intention of suppressing turnout. We need more turnout, not less.

If you are against stupid government, you should be against these laws at this point in time.

 

I love that you put studies in quotes. I mean have you read anything about it?


You are missing the issue here (and maybe proponents as well.) Fine, people need to somehow prove who they are to vote. However, if you want to make a law then you need to make sure it is a good solution. Looking at the effects it has had on voter turnout on specific demographic should show that the current solution does not work very well because it disproportionately effects poor minorities. It's not like there is always just 1 way to do anything. Support research into alternative ways to secure identification.


Bobby, I think you make a good argument about relating 1 constitutional right to another however I think the requirement for ID for a gun was created because of fraud and problems that led to crime unlike this issue.

If everyone can't at least agree that states should pursue methods of ID confirmation that do not require the unbelievable amount of paperwork that certain groups don't have or aren't correct then it becomes very difficult to believe you don't have this opinion for political reasons. A driver's license allows you to do SOO many things so it's not unreasonable that you have to provide so many documents. You should not need as much if you need a card that just lets you vote.

There is actually an ID you can get just for voting but it still requires documents that a lot of people don't have. Please see the spoiler button in my previous posts to see how.


The argument that a lot of you guys have matches rhetoric used in the south before civil rights legislation. "If they really want to vote then they should just do X"

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The AP wrote a good summary of the current status of the Texas voter registration laws.

TLDR: The most recent find is that parts of the law are unconstitutional but that was only from 1/3 of the 5th U.S. court of Appeals. The entire court will meet May 24th. The only ruling was back in 2014 by a judge in Corpus that labeled it unconstitutional. 5 out of the other 6 5th court judges would have to overrule the corpus judge assuming the 3 US court judges that have already heard the case keep their stance. It seems likely that at least parts of the law will be rules unconstitutional. I guess the state can then opt to take it to the Supreme Court? I wonder if that would mean that there would be a stay on any ruling in May while they wait to see if the S.C takes the case. If that happens then there is no way anything changes by the fall election.


http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Lingering-cases-could-affect-presidential-7213363.php
Lingering cases could affect presidential election in Texas

If people actually care about the voter fraud side of the argument then they should think of alturnative methods that don't disproportionately affect certain groups. What I'm (and a lot of people) are skeptical about is how much the supporters care about voter fraud vs the effect of reducing democrat turnouts.

The best option for liberals is to give up on the "Voter Fraud isn't a big problem" and focus on finding solutions that can "solve" or address the problem while not making it difficult for people to vote. Maybe building an online voter registration system could tie in digital checks to various databases? I don't know but I do know people don't seem to be looking for an alternative.

 

Voter fraud is a largely irrelevant issue just as is Voter ID. If States can have screwed up primary/caucus rules and loose voter registration restrictions, then they should have a right to require ID's.

I'd wager for every person that is disenfranchised by voter ID laws, I would say there are dozens who are disenfranchised by voter registration and primary rules.

For example, if the state screws up your voter registration for one reason or another and you dont catch it until the day of election, you dont get to vote. This is common with people who move frequently. Maybe they accidentally clicked no instead of yes. Maybe it just didnt get filed. Maybe there was a discrepancy. The end result; You dont get to vote.

Primaries arguably weigh more per vote than the actual election. In most states your vote is irrelevant in the general election. If you're one of the 11 states that have closed primaries, then you must vote in whichever party you're registered to. And if you are independent or not declared, guess what! You dont get to vote!!! How ****ed up is that?

So tell me again why Voter ID laws are so relevant?

 

I have no idea what your point is.

 

The point is loose registration laws and loose primary restrictions disenfranchise many many more people than voter fraud or voter ID.

Gerrymandering is more serious problem than all of these issues combined.

I am opposed to Voter ID because its irrelevant. Its largely irrelevant to require ID just as its largely irrelevant to b**** about being forced to have ID.

This topic is nothing more than to distract from the real issues. Deal with something relevant. And if you're really this passionate about this issue, then go help the few dozen people this effects .... good luck finding them.

 

These are all different issues. I have no idea why we have to choose which one to care about when they all matter. This thread is about Voter ID laws which is why I'm talking about Voter ID laws.

Your facts are wrong.