Mass hysteria - gonna be funny when they die and find out the truth, whatever it is, it is not what religion tells us it is. DD
Probably the most anglocentric post ever made in this BBS. How about the fact that prior to Imperialism the Muslim world was actually the center of intellectual thought and civilization. Hard to believe but true.
This is not evidence. You are putting every mujahadeen under the same umbrella and calling them all equally terrorist members of Al-Qaeda. You failed to establish a connection between the United States and how it "trained the fighters who formed Al Qaeda". Show some evidence that Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri were "trained" by the United States. Those were the two most prominent founders of Al-Qaeda.
I never claimed Bin Laden nor Al Zawahiri were trained by the U.S. - that's a strawman. I only said the U.S. trained the people who eventually would apply those skills within Al Qaeda. Bomb making knowledge was introduced to the Mujahedeen who then spread that knowledge - these bombmakers continued making bombs after the Soviets left. But keep playing strawman's and burying your head in the sand.
It is not a strawman. It is LITERALLY what you stated. No, the United States did not LITERALLY train OSL or AAZ. They were members of a very small mujahadeen unit - the Arab mujahadeen. Keep playing mental gymnastics, one day you'll win gold.
You are crazy, I never said we trained bin laden or AAZ. Again, I said we trained the fighters (bombmakers) who did indeed become part of Islamist movements. You keep twisting my words to say OBL / AAZ. That's a strawman. Stop being so disingenuous.
How anyone can type this out and think that they are a good person is beyond me. Sure if you don't mind being colonized, your property seized, your wife being used as a **** toy by countless soldiers--sure.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/08/july7.development Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1670089.stm During the anti-Soviet jihad Bin Laden and his fighters received American and Saudi funding. Some analysts believe Bin Laden himself had security training from the CIA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulbuddin_Hekmatyar http://www.ibtimes.com/officially-terrorists-haqqani-network-and-why-us-blacklisted-them-780813
There's actually a very simple answer to this. Islam is inherently a rebellious religion, it was born out of a single protester overthrowing a corrupt ruling class and that quality is what is going to end up giving Arabs the sovereignty and list of rights which they have never had. I don't know anything about what religion or theology the Aboriginese follow except that the theft of what they consider most sacred - nature - led them to being largely wiped out first, and then kidnappings of their children, forced conversions and now what do you have? A race of people where unemployment, alcoholism, heart disease, depression, drugs, poverty is rampant. Is this the blueprint? We should be talking about how we can help Aboriginese people. Equally important, Aboriginese have more rights than Arabs right now and there is nothing legally which denies them the opportunity to become presidents or parliamentarians or military commanders of Australia. Almost all Muslims live in countries where their crony leaders - friends with the imperialists - deny them the right to be represented. Finally, there's over a billion muslims in the world. When the aboriginese had the numbers, they DID engage in massive guerilla warfare against their imperialists. It's just that they lost because they were not united well, their weapons sucked and they had to use desperate tactics to try to win. They lost, and what resulted was most of them were wiped off the face of the earth and their countries stolen. If you ask me, the aboriginese need to learn the lesson of rebellion from the Quran (though, definitely not from extremist Muslims) and the lesson of love from Christianity. You are essentially here asking, why don't extremist Muslims - who have no political voice - just accept the theft of their rights, sovereignty and land without responding to violence with violence. Tough luck to you I guess, but this is an idiotic expectation. You wouldn't even expect it of yourselves. Americans themselves are the least likely to accept anything similar without resorting to violence, it's really miraculous how many people on this board don't see it. For similar reasons (a rich history of protest) Americans are staunchly anti-imperialist, and that's why the media so meticulously ensures that you don't see your own government as imperialists. They've done the psych work, they know what's up. US foreign policy towards other imperialists is: if they set up one base in a NEARBY country, assault the small country and nuke the imperialist country even though 99% of the people who would die would be innocent civilians who had no say in the matter and ramp up the militarization of several countries on the border of the other imperialist country, which is Russia in this case. I don't support any type of warfare. I believe if protest is necessary, then non-violent protest has a much more succesful record than violent protest. BUT most of you DO believe in war, US foreign/trade policy seeks out war, and the range of ideas Americans can vote for in that regard is: should we keep oppressing and assaulting them this much or should we increase it? Hillary Clinton has at times called herself a progressive and even liberal and she voted for the Iraq war and strongly supported the plan which ended up wiping Libya off the map. You have several serious candidates saying things no different than Osama Bin Laden or Hizbollah or ISIS: carpet bomb them and their families, torture is ok, ignore the rule of law when dealing with these people. See this is the thing about US govt policy. It will whine about Ahmedinejad stupidly thinking he can wipe out Israel, meanwhile it wipes out Libya and Iraq. It whines about anti-imperialism, meanwhile it nearly drags the world into a nuclear war because Russia established a small base in Cuba. It whines about guerilla warfare against a strong imperialist, when that's exactly why America exists today. We are the America to your British Empire. Arabs are just looking for their George Washington. And he will be FLAWED, like George Washington was flawed. And his ideas will be flawed, like George Washington's were. But, he will get Arabs out of this. And then when the imperialists are gone, a civil war as always ensues. Then Arabs will need their Lincoln. And he will be flawed, like your Lincoln. So on and so forth. The only problem is you can't see that George Washington was viewed by Britons exactly as you would view an Arab leader of a militia with ****ty weapons who calls for the complete withdrawal of imperialists from the region. It's the same. It's the same. It's the same. The good news is, I have total faith in Americans to make that connection and understand it, as soon as Arabs learn that they have to respond with love for American citizens rather than bombs for Americans' government. I also fully anticipate that in the future Arabs will begin to understand on a larger scale that the same imperialist that is killing/robbing them abroad, is robbing American citizens at home and unnecessarily allowing a LOT of Americans to die or starve or become violent. Just like Britons discovered that the people who were oppressing Americans were also oppressing them but they kept their mouth shut as long as their pockets were full. Just like you're doing. Hell, just like people in some rich Arab countries are doing. Just takes time. Unfortunately. Every side is losing good, innocent people in this mess.
Educated folks with jobs don't generally become radicals. It's not as simple as us becoming less meddlesome and the issue is complex. However, our policy (the West's policy) since WW1 and WW2 has been to chop up the Middle East along geographic lines (not cultural) and prop up/dispose of governments based on what we need. The Middle East, despite it's oil and gas resources is poor overall with the wealth concentrated in a few hands. South America follows much of the same path from our meddling. These people and countries are ultimately responsible for their own actions but you have to be pretty stupid not to be able to see the big picture.
How many of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi nationals? How many of them experienced excessive American overreach? How many Muslims born and raised in Europe who joined ISIS experienced American overreach? Seriously ask yourself how many Islamic terrorists today are fighting because of Western overreach vs the desire to make a global caliphate.
Many of the attackers in recent attacks in Europe actually went through European school systems. The shoe bomber was a rich kid. Bin Laden certainly was not uneducated or poor. Neither is Al-Zawahiri. Etc. etc. etc. The poison is the ideology of political Islam. Trying to discount that by blaming it on wealth inequality or lack of education distracts from what the source is, the core motivation. Does it help if people are educated better? Are people who have more to lose less susceptible to blowing themselves up? Yes. Does that mean that Islam is not the core motivation behind terror and evil for these people, even for educated ones and ones with money? No.
Israel wiped away 99% of the Palestinian population? So explain to me the large share of Islamic extremists who have never experienced imperialistic oppression and explicitly claimed that their goal is to establish a global caliphate. Your analogy would be more accurate if Red Dawn was a movie about some right wing nut jobs who's country hasn't been invaded and starts performing guerrilla warfare and has no qualms about attacking civilian populaces. Also, when you ask them their motive they explicitly state that they want to spread their right wing ideology to the rest of the planet. That would be a more accurate comparison. Some drastically false equivalences you have there buddy.
I cant see idiots with criminal history or mental issues taking a charge to defend a faith...or political cause ..i just dont see any relation with them representing anything that has value aside from being terrorists attacking civilians for whatever psycho thought they had
Young people, especially college educated people are especially impressionable and vulnerable to conversion to various rebellious ideologies and it kind of doesn't matter what those ideologies are. In America, you had those college kids that discovered Karl Marx and thought Communism was cool. Iran has the most ironic example, the 1979 revolution against the Shah was in part fueled by college students. That ushered in the current theocracy, which is mostly opposed a generation later by, guess who, the college students.
Yes, but how many of these college rebel movements led to suicide bombings of civilian places around the globe every other week?
