if its not a deliberate kick and harden just happens to throw the pass at an opposing players feet that's not a kickball. I guess you can say this is more of a judgement call but yeah passing the ball when an opposing player happens to be in motion and does not purposely go for the kick ball defense is all on the passer as a turnover.
no. a turnover is a turnover. it's never "acceptable" per se. but for a player who has the ball the most time on a team, it does make a diff. if he has something else to compensate for the turnovers he commits. that sth. could be points (harden) or assists (rondo), or other things he does to help the team win games. by any means, your assessment of "rondo is more turnover-prone" is totally wrong and inaccurate. the truth is quite the opposite.
My guess is that he's referring to their TO Ratio. That's the number of turnovers per 100 possession. Rondo turns the ball over 14.4 times per 100 possessions. Harden turns the ball over 12.8 times per 100 possessions. BTW TO Ratio is not the same as TOV% on Basketball-Reference's site. TO Ratio is an actual number that is tracked by the NBA. TOV% is an estimate since Basketball-Reference doesn't track actual possessions for a player.
i see. i never quite liked those "per 100 possessions" or "per 48 minutes" stats, because no one, on season avg., plays a full 48-minute game or has the ball on all ~100 possessions of the game.
Did you ever consider that players are high turnover because they dominate the ball? Have you looked at the list of the turnover leaders this season? 1. Harden, 2. Westbrook, 3. Wall, 4. Rondo, 5. Cousins, 6. Knight, 7. Durant, 8. P. George, 9. Lillard, 10. Mudiay 11.Draymond Green 12. L. James, 13.Curry, 14. Lowry, 15. Batum, 16. Rose, 17. Wade, 18. Carter-Williams, 19. C. Paul, 20. Teague. You see any low useage guys on that list? You don't want any of those players dominating the ball in close games? What's OKC suppose to do if Durant and Westbrook can't handle the ball? You thought that Harden shot poorly in last season's playoffs even though he had a 62% TS%? Apparently you have some really high standards.
Why do you need to break it down per game? Per 100 simply shows you who's turning the ball over more. How is a per game number meaningful if you don't know how many possessions a player is playing? If you play at a faster pace or you play more minutes then you're going to have more possessions and likely a higher total number of turnovers. It doesn't get much simpler than TO Ratio. It simply means that Harden turns the ball over on 12.8% of our possessions and Rondo turns it over on 14.4% of his teams possessions.
It looks like pretty much all those guys have lower to ratios than Harden and in the case of guys like Westbrook and Lowry, also higher assist ratios. JB has already come out and said they are a problem especially when the defense can't even get set As far as rondo, not to defend him but he has a very high assist ratio. Also if you go back to guys like Hakeem and Karl Malone their ratios weren't this high either
I'm sure it's been mentioned but those crazy home run passes seem to ALWAYS miss their mark. Why even attempt those especially to Dwight when he has the hands of a snake.
how are the %'s derived from? the denominator has to be the possessions the player plays per game, no? otherwise it would mean that rondo turns the ball over 14.4 times per game and harden 12.8 times, assuming both teams have about 100 possessions per game?
If you want to look at turnovers in relation to points scored, simply subtract 2 points for every turnover. That would be a pretty good average, maybe even slightly lower that what it should be. Because on average a possession is worth around 1 point (or a little more). So there a point taken away for the loss of a possession by the offense and there's an extra point scored by the opponent on an extra possession. So go ahead and subtract all 5 turnovers from Hardens stat line last night. Here you go 2 for 17 from the field 2 for 8 from 3 8 for 8 from the FT line 14 points 7 rebounds 16 assists 4 steals Now if you want to merge steals into points, it's the same 2 points going the other way. 6 for 17 from the field 2 for 8 from 3 8 for 8 from FT line 22 points 7 rebounds 16 assists
i get what you're saying, and i largely dont disagree. but i usually dont read too much or too deep into stats. for instance, if i pass the ball to an open teammate and he scores a 3, that's an assist credited to me; but if my open teammate takes a dribble or 2 b4 he scores a layup, then it's not an assist. so, #'s are meaningful, but they need to be taken into account in perspective, imo. morey is a genius at #'s. but look what he has achieved with this houston team. not a thrilling amount of success, i should say.
You can also look at things like win shares, ORtg, and plus minus which incorporate them and show Harden having a worse year than last year
Interesting idea. And I agree: I think it's much more than 2pts. My reasoning would be because the ~1pt/poss (league ave) already factors in turnovers. So, if you look at league average points / (turnover-free possession), it would be much higher than 1. Conversely, if you look at offense derived from a TO, the likelyhood of scoring off a turnover is much higher than 1pt/possession. Anyhoot, cheers for a simple measure of league-average effect TOs have on scoring. With a little work, we can probably demonstrate that it is significantly higher than 2pts/poss bottomline: this is a boxscore method to demonstrate the famous 4pt turnaround -- at it's worst outcome.
Harden is by far our best ball handler and it's not even close. He obviously should be handling the ball the majority of the time. That being said, he needs to be better, some of his turnovers are just laziness. Sometimes it seems like his head isn't in the game.
What does that have to do with my post? The post I was replying to said that high turnover players shouldn't dominate the ball in close games. It had nothing to do with assist to turnover ratios. In fact, my point wasn't even specific to Harden. My point was that when players have the ball in their hands more then they are more likely to turn it over. As far as Rondo, yes he has a higher assist/to ratio which is what you'd expect since Rondo has such high assist numbers (11.7). Rondo is a better assist guy (+4.3) and Harden is a much better scorer (+16.8). We already knew this, right? Still has nothing to do with my post.
Yes it's the number of turnovers per 100 possessions. So if Harden turns the ball over 12.8 times per 100 possessions then he's turning the ball over 12.8% of our total possessions. That's the most simplistic number to equalize for minutes played and pace. Make sense? Per game isn't equivalent because players don't play the same number of minutes and teams don't play at the same pace.
Using the two point/to metric would imply that Houston allows 32.2 pts/game off of turnovers since we turn the ball over 16.1 times per game. Do you really believe that we allow anywhere near 32.2 pts off of turnovers per game.
Chill out. Your post talked about to ratios, and my post did to. High usage guys will have high turnovers, but Hardens is way too high for his assist ratio
